Accredited Standards Committee	Doc. No.:	X3L2/95-1xx
X3, Information Technology* 	Date:	December 12, 1995
X3L2, Codes and Character Sets	Project:	ADMIN
		Reply to:	Peter K. Edberg
To:	X3L2		Apple Computer, Inc.
			MS 302-2IS
			1 Infinite Loop
			Cupertino, CA 95014
			Voice:	(408) 974-4275
			Fax:	(408) 862-4566
			email:	pedberg@apple.com

Subject:	Draft Minutes for X3L2 meeting #166, December 7-8, 1995
Action requested:	Review

This meeting was hosted by Hewlett-Packard in Palo Alto (on Thursday) and Cupertino (on Friday). The Thursday meeting was called to order at 9:20 AM.

Administrative Agenda:

1.1.1. Appoint meeting secretary
Edberg was appointed secretary for the X3L2 meeting Thursday and the X3L2 plenary Friday afternoon.

1.1.2. Roll call
Members present were
Apple - Edberg
HP - Ksar, Carroll (9:45)
IBM - Griffee
Microsoft - Suignard (9:30), Sargent (11:35)
RLG - Aliprand
SHARE - Hart
Unisys - Winkler
Unicode - Freytag (9:55)

Laura Wideburg of Asmus Inc. was present to observe the meeting process.

1.1.3. Update member mailing list (SD-1).
As of Dec 4, Asmus Freytag is the principal rep for Unicode, Steve Greenfield is the alternate.

Tim Greenwood is leaving Digital as of December 15 and must resign as its X3L2 rep. The new rep will be Wendy Rannenberg, but she could not make it to today's meeting on such short notice.

Taligent is not formally part of IBM yet (not till 1996).

1.1.4. Members in jeopardy (SD-5).
Digital was already in jeopardy, and should be dropped since they missed this meeting. However, it was their intent to participate in this meeting and Tim Greenwood's participation had been approved; it was only his resignation that made it impossible for them to participate today.

1.2 Agenda review
Major topics for today:
- Transition of officers
- Respond to public comments on ASCII
- NP for character-glyph model
- Yiddish letter YOD HIRIQ. Already accepted by UTC; need to submit joint proposal.

Things we don't need to pursue:
- Iranian proposal was resolved by UTC (it is joiner/non-joiner in another guise)

Topics for joint meeting tomorrow:
- Byzantine music
- Several things from IRG
- Braille
- Proposal to add 10 Livonian characters (new document #126; Winkler has a copy)

1.3.1. Minutes of meeting #165
Discussion: Under the heading "Summary of UTC meetings 64 & 65, liaison report from Unicode," the comment "There is no interest from X3L2 in Mongolian" was changed to be "The X3L2 members present had no expertise in Mongolian."

Edberg moved to approve the minutes as amended, Griffee seconded.
6 yes, 1 abstain (RLG), 1 absent for vote (Unicode).

1.3.2. X3L2 New officer status
Winkler, candidate for Chair: waiting for X3 approval.
Aliprand, candidate for Vice-Chair: waiting for X3 approval.
Suignard, candidate for International Rep: waiting for his management approval.

Note that Winkler is also approved by the UTC as the UTC vice chair if he accepts.

Also note that new officer training is Feb. 19 in Monterey (Calif.).

1.3.3. Upcoming meetings
Location for meeting #167, June 1996:  Griffee can host in Boulder if we can charge a meeting fee (say $50/member). Postpone this discussion to joint meeting Friday.

1.3.4 Update liaison list (SD-4)
Liaison reps to X3L2:
- delete CVCC/CSA-WG.
- rep from ECMA is changed from J. van den Beld to M. Ksar (per Ksar).
- rep from X3V1 is changed from D. McBain to A. Griffee (per Griffee).
- add rep from AFII, A. Griffee.

Liaison reps from X3L2:
- rep to JTC1/SC2, SC2/WG2, and SC2/WG3 is changed to be M. Suignard as IR designate.
- liaison rep to X3J11 is now open due to Greenwood's resignation. A potential candidate suggested by Winkler & Freytag is Michael Kung; he is added pending confirmation.
- delete Hart as liaison rep to X3T2 (so this position is now open).
- delete Unicode, in view of joint meetings ( no liaison is necessary).

** Action item 166-01 for Hart: Write letter to X3 to indicate that Winkler, Aliprand, and Suignard are to receive all mailings from SC2 and its WGs.

1.3.5. Update project list (SD-6).
Hart needs to drop all editor commitments except 1141-L (he can keep editorship of 12-M until the next meeting; most of the other projects assigned to him do not require much work). Also, we need to delete Tim Greenwood as editor for any project, due to his resignation. We can transfer all of the projects assigned to Greenwood to the International Rep (IR). Note: All of the tasks assigned to the IR are not necessarily active. The IR's job is to monitor the projects; if they become active, he can make a recommendation to activate them and an editor can be assigned at that point.

Specific changes:

#2, project 6-M. Editor is currently Greenwood; however, withdrawal of this project is pending, so we don't need to assign a new editor.

#3, project 12-M. Hart continues as editor until the next X3L2 meeting, then the editorship is open.

#4, project 13-R. This is complete, so leave the editorship open. Change the project code to 13-M.

#5, project 103-RF. Change the project code to 103-L; change editor from McGowan to IR.

#6, project 105-L. Leave editorship open.

#10, project 240-L. Assign to IR.

#17, project 392-M. Change editor to be the IR. Also add a note that this project includes liaison work (not maintenance work) on the other parts of ISO 8859. Note: This standard is up for reaffirmation next year; ISO may change the character names to align them with ISO 10646.

#17a. Delete this line, since the liaison work on 8859 parts was included in line #17.

#18, project 396-D. Change project code to 396-D (see discussion and vote below). Change editor to be X3L2 Chair.

Originally this project was to adopt ISO 10646 as a US standard, then the purpose was changed to create a US profile of 10646--hence the D code. It appears that we are no longer trying to create a US profile of 10646, so we need to change the project code. If we are interested in making it a US standard, then we should change the code to M; otherwise we should change it to L.

In the recent past, our policy has been not to adopt other ISO standards as US standards (this was discussed for ISO 2022 and ISO 6429). Making ISO standards US standards will not make them more likely to be supported by other US standards groups. It will make the documents cost less, but this would be offset by the cost of increased work for this group.

Griffee moved that we change project 396 to an L project. Ksar seconded. Approved unanimously.

** Action item 166-02 for Hart: Notify X3 of this decision.

#19, project 495-M. Change project code to 495-L (see discussion and vote below). Change editor to be the IR.

Winkler expressed the concern that significant updates to ISO 2022 may result in significant updates to ISO 4873 (and also to the registry standard ISO 10367). This will be up for reaffirmation in 1996.

Do we want to continue to update the US standard to match changes in the ISO version? How about withdrawing the US standard in favor of the ISO version? Hart: Maybe this should be letter ballot, so all members can respond. Freytag: No, companies can respond during the review period.

Freytag moved that: X3L2 recommends withdrawing ANSI/ISO 4873 as a US standard in favor of the ISO version, and recommends changing project 495 to a liaison (L)  project. Seconded by Griffee. Approved Unanimously.

** Action 166-03 for Hart: Notify X3 of this decision.

Other status:
- Regarding X3L2's proposal to be the US TAG for collation of characters from ISO 10646 [94-148]: The X3 OMC decided that X3L2 would be a liaison, not a TAG.
- ANSI withdrew X3.26 this year (not last year as previously noted).
- X3.32 is likely to be withdrawn in a couple of months.
- Project 1141-L was approved for the character-glyph model.

1.3.6. Delegates to other meetings
The next WG2 meeting is April 22-26 in Copenhagen, followed by a TC46 [?] meeting on April 29 about sorting. The following were proposed as delegates to the April WG2 meeting: Kung, McConnell, Suignard, Winkler. Edberg moved that we accept this proposal; Carroll seconded. Approved unanimously. Note: Freytag & Ksar will be at the WG2 meeting, but not as US delegates

The next IRG meeting is February 5-9 at Apple (Cupertino), hosted by Unicode. The following were proposed as delegates to the IRG meeting: L Collins (Apple), T Naughton (Apple), K Smith-Yoshimura (RLG), Jenkins (Taligent). Winkler moved that we accept this proposal, Freytag seconded. Approved unanimously. Note: Ksar will be at the IRG meeting, but not as a US delegate.

** Action 166-04 for Winkler and Edberg: Edberg to provide Naughton's address to Winkler; Winkler to add Naughton to the list of people who should receive WG2 material.

Note: We need to know what is going on in IRG; we have had surprises in the past.

The subsequent WG2 meeting is August 12-16 in Quebec, followed by a WG3 meeting on August 19, and then an SC2 meeting August 20-21. The following were proposed as delegates to the August WG2 meeting: Kung, McConnell, Suignard, Winkler. Freytag moved that we accept this proposal; Aliprand seconded. Approved unanimously.

** Action 166-05 for the IR: Verify the delegate lists for all of these meetings and send them to X3. Add Ksar as part of the US delegation for the August WG3 and SC2 meetings only (not for the WG2 meeting).

1.3.7. Review action items (SD-2)
** Action 166-06 for Winkler: Add a standing task for the X3L2 chair to notify X3 of new liaison representatives (this replaces specific action items like 164-03)

163-03: Done. X3 said at the X3 level, one person can represent multiple members. Both member organizations have to bless this. However, there is no provision for this at the technical committee level. They would need to have a letter  requesting this sort of arrangement. Since this was originally requested by Taligent, Hart sent a note to Mark Davis and John Jenkins saying they could draft the letter if they wanted to pursue this. The issue is now moot.

163-14: Still open.

163-15: Done.

163-17: Withdrawn by today's action changing the status of project 396.

163-18: Withdraw, since this was also related to the Unicode profile project.

164-03: Done (for C language liaison, to X3J11).

164-04: Done. The decision was not to add this annex.

164-05: Open.

164-06: Done. OMC did not have any guidelines.

164-12: Withdrawn (possibly to be replaced with a new action item). This had two parts: (1) Include this material as part of Unicode book; this is in progress. (2) Submit this material to WG2; we should rephrase this to submit the material from the Unicode book. This is an item for Friday's meeting; depending on the discussion there, a new action item may be assigned.

165-01: Done.

165-03: Open.

165-07: Withdrawn.

165-09: Withdraw (it is similar to 164-12).

165-13: Done by Hart. Hart redistributed some of the Braille material originally distributed as X3L2/90-64. Unfortunately, there were no minutes from the X3L2 meeting at which this was originally discussed. Further action on Braille will be deferred to Friday's meeting.

1.3.8. Annual report. [95-077]
There was universal acclaim for Ed Hart on the thoroughness of this annual report.

Hart wanted to pursue the question of how to obtain expertise on some lesser-known scripts; this should be discussed at Friday's joint meeting.

1.3.9. Correspondence
None.

1.4. X3, JTC1, and ANSI administrative matters.
For information on the Geneva seminar, see the ISO.ch web site.

1.5.1. SC2 resolutions from Helsinki meeting [95-065]
No response necessary.

1.5.2. ITU-T activity on character sets and coding [95-070]
Freytag pointed out that T.61 is deleted in favor of the T.5x series, and at least two of the T.5x series make use of ISO 10646. This is encouraging.

1.5.3. WG3 resolutions from Helsinki [95-067]
Regarding M10.4: Note that the JTC1 subcommittee that used to handle OCR was dissolved (the US is in a similar situation).

Regarding M10.5 on new 8-bit codes for Uyghur and Kazakh: Freytag expressed concern about new 8-bit standards that might include characters which are not yet in ISO 10646. X3L2's default action should be to disapprove these instead of approve them; we can express this in the ballot language.

Freytag moved: When balloting for 8859-x parts and other WG3 standards, if the proposal includes characters which are not in ISO/IEC 10646, the X3L2 ballot should state "X3L2 recommends rejection" with the comment "the characters are not in the published version of ISO/IEC 10646". Suignard seconded. Approved unanimously (Aliprand was absent for this vote).

** Action 166-07 [for Winkler?]: Make this a standing task [in SD-2?] for whoever prepares the ballots.

** Action 166-08 for Hart: Draft a US position on this for WG2 and WG3.

<break for lunch at 12:00, reconvene at 1:40 with all attendees present>

1.6.1 Unicode liaison report
We can drop the Unicode liaison report from this and future meetings.

1.6.2 WG2, IRG liaison report
[Anything here? -Peter]

1.6.3 ECMA TC1 liaison report
Ksar  will give this information in the Friday joint meeting.

1.6.4 TC46 and NISO liaison report
Aliprand: TC46 made the decision when ISO 10646 was published not to do any more new character set development, just to finish the ones they are working on: about 11 or so that need to be progressed to publication. NISO has two character sets: Extended Latin and EACC. EACC has been reaffirmed, but needs extensions.

Freytag: TC46 and NISO should both be dropped in Liaison role. Winkler: NISO is one of the four entities working on a sorting standard. Aliprand: This sorting is only for Latin; RLG voted against doing this work.

** Action 166-09 for Aliprand: Provide Edberg with a list (for inclusion in the minutes) of the 11 standards mentioned above.

[something about Randy Berry, which I missed. -Peter]

Freytag: In the future, we will deal with this under WG20, so delete this liaison report for future meetings. Also, he would like to have written reports in advance of the meeting for liaison relationships, before we have discussion at the meeting.

1.6.5 SC18, X3V1, AFII liaison report
Griffee: They were originally planning to have joint meeting with X3L2 this week, but that proved impossible at this meeting location; they are meeting in Salt Lake instead. This has caused some frustration on the part of X3V1 about the relationship with X3L2. Ksar: The only reason we couldn't host them was financial; the large number of X3V1 attendees would have required that the meeting be located in a hotel facility.

1.6.6 SC22 liaison report
No report for now, delete this liaison report from future meetings.

1.6.7 SC22/WG20 (Internationalization) liaison report
Defer this to Friday joint meeting.

1.7 Deliverables
Need to draft some editorial comments on pDAM-8, so we have at least a strawman proposal going in to the Friday joint meeting.

Technical Agenda:

2.1 Project 396, Multiple-Byte Character Sets
a) Items for the joint meeting with UTC

If a response is needed to something from WG2, discuss it in the joint meeting. This includes:
1. Byzantine music - still on agenda
2. Several things from IRG
3. Braille
4. Proposal to add 10 Livonian characters

b) YOD HIRIQ

This is for Yiddish. The proposal is to add it to the Hebrew presentation forms area. It is appropriate that this proposal comes from the U.S. and not Israel, since the agency that represents Yiddish speakers is YIVO in the U.S.

Freytag moved: X3L2 recommends to WG2 that we accept HEBREW LETTER YOD WITH HIRIQ for encoding in the presentations forms area. Edberg seconded. Approved unanimously.

** Action 166-10 for Aliprand: Ensure that the WG2 form gets prepared for this character.

c) Keeping X3L2 and Unicode in sync

There are concerns about how to keep X3L2 and Unicode in sync, since Unicode meets more frequently (the reverse won't happen since X3L2 meetings are always with Unicode meetings). Freytag proposal: When Unicode develops a new proposal, X3L2 immediately ballots on the same proposal. Edberg: Need to have documentation of Unicode discussion at the same time. Griffee: If there is no intervening WG2 meeting is this still necessary? Freytag and Aliprand: Yes, the reason is to move things forward. Ksar: Suppose we have X3L2 meetings with every Unicode meeting? Freytag: There are problems with meeting attendance rules and 2/3 vote requirements.

Freytag moved: When X3L2 and UTC do not jointly meet and UTC makes a recommendation to WG2 on character repertoire or a major architectural feature, the X3L2 chair is instructed to send a letter ballot, accompanied by appropriate documentation, to make the same recommendation to WG2. Aliprand seconded. Approved unanimously.

** Action 166-11 for Hart: Incorporate this in the co-location guidelines, X3L2/95-079, and send it to X3.

2.2 Project 12, 7-bit ASCII.
2.2.1 Results of X3L2 ballot to reaffirm
X3L2 voted to reaffirm. There was discussion about the terminology of the ballot.

2.2.2 Respond to comments from public review
** Action 166-12 for Aliprand: Send Hart the details of the Z39 standard being sent around for review.

Griffee moved: Approve the draft response by Hart and forward to X3. Freytag seconded. Approved unanimously.

** Action 166-13 for Hart: Finish the letter and forward it to X3. This will be document 95-128.

2.3 Project 1141, Character-Glyph Model
2.3.1 Results from WG2 and SC2
First discuss the NP (not the character-glyph document itself).

Griffee moved: We accept the NP and instruct the chair to fill in the 7 items, including (a) we are willing to actively participate, and (b) we are willing to provide an editor or editors. Carroll seconded. Approved unanimously.

Now discuss any comments on the character-glyph document.
- It is missing some of the necessary glyphs
- Griffee: It would be nice if we could make the font model descriptions more parallel.

Griffee moved: In conjunction with the NP, the US recommends that we align the font models to be more parallel, taking care not to make technical changes. Withdrawn.

** Action 166-14 for Edberg: Supply Hart with additional bitmaps for the character-glyph document: a serif italic example for fi and ffi ligatures.

2.4 Additional topics
Results in pDAM balloting:

pDAM 6 - passed, with two comments (from RLG & Apple).
pDAM 7 - passed, with no comments.
pDAM 8 - 5-5 vote; there were several comments.

Reconsider pDAM-8 in this meeting.

HP changes its yes vote to a no.

Griffee: The document needs to be more understandable to the non-expert reader.

Aliprand: We had a document from the original author, Aoki-san, with a few more examples. Japan may submit these as national body comments.

Griffee moved: X3L2 recommends a no vote because the document is not sufficient as it stands. The US will change its vote to a YES if the suggested editorial comments or equivalent are incorporated. Aliprand seconded. Vote: 6 yes, 2 no (Edberg, Hart). Motion passed.

Aliprand has a draft of editorial comments. Discussion of the draft:
- We should divide it into comments that are required to change out no vote to a yes, and additional comments that we also recommend.
- Lee Collins may information that explains some of the points in pDAM-8. Edberg will check with him.
Aliprand will update the draft.

Thursday meeting adjourned at 4:45. Editorial work on pDAM-8 continued in smaller groups.

X3L2 Plenary:

This began Friday at 5:15 PM, following the joint X3L2-UTC meeting.

Members present were
Apple - Edberg, McConnell, Naughton
HP - Carroll
IBM - Griffee
Microsoft - Suignard, Sargent
RLG - Aliprand
SHARE - Hart
Taligent - Jenkins
Unisys - Winkler
Unicode - Freytag

Observers present:
Becker - Xerox

Others present:
[first name] Texin
Ken Whistler - Sybase
Laura Wideburg - Asmus Inc.

3.1.1 Vote on resolutions from the X3L2-UTC joint meeting
Resolutions that are relevant:

2 - Endorse the Ethiopic proposal.

4 - Unless there is an identifiable editing error supported by documentation, missing characters cannot be considered defects but must be handled by the standard procedures for adding characters. (this is a response to the Pinyin proposal)

6 - UTC endorses the WG2 resolutions on not changing character names; N1252 should be changed to reflect this.

7 - UTC accepts the object replacement character to be located at FFFC.

There was discussion about joint vs non-joint submissions.

Freytag proposal: For X3L2, recast the resolution as an X3L2 resolution. When X3L2 and UTC are making the same proposal, we should administratively combine cover letters, and should submit jointly. This is not unusual, we have had joint submissions with China before, for example.

Griffee has concerns about this. Jenkins: Will this make X3L2 seem like a UTC puppet?

Griffee moved: We accept the 4 resolutions above. Freytag seconded. More discussion:

Ksar: Has concerns about this way of submitting a defect report (as in resolution 4). There is a specific way to handle defects.

Freytag: This is not a defect report in the WG2 sense. The question is: Is this about a defect in the standard as written or is this a request to amend the standard? We are trying to provide guidance to WG2 in how to handle this.

Jenkins: There is nothing we can do to stop people from submitting defect reports. However it is valid to suggest procedures.

Freytag: Amend the current motion to only cover resolutions 2,6,7. New motion as amended: X3L2 accepts resolutions 2, 6, 7. Approved unanimously.

Griffee moved: X3L2 accepts UTC 4 to be forwarded to WG2 preceded by the phrase "The US considers the following a guideline for considering defect reports." Freytag seconded.

Freytag: Amend the current motion to say "It is the US position that unless there is an identifiable error supported by documentation...". New motion as amended: ... "It is the US position that unless there is an identifiable error supported by documentation, missing characters cannot be considered defects but must be handled by the standard procedures for adding character repertoires." Vote: 6 yes, 3 no (Hart, Ksar, Suignard).

** Action 166-15 for Winkler: Write this up for WG2.

** Action 166-16 for Becker: Prepare Ethiopic proposal for WG2 submission, forward to Winkler for WG2 submission.

** Action 166-17 for Sargent: Fill out N1252 form for the object replacement character, forward to Winkler for WG2 submission.

** Action 166-18 for Winkler: Write up resolution 6 for WG2

There was more discussion on the Pinyin issues: In the joint meeting, there was no agreement on the particular numbers & types of characters.

Freytag moved: X3L2 supports the effort of the UTC to identify and request the addition of Pinyin characters with tone marks that are missing to complete the coverage of GBK (GB1235-90) in ISO 10646. Griffee seconded. Vote: 8 yes, 1 no (Jenkins).

Freytag moves as amended by Hart: X3L2 accepts in principle the editing changes contained in document 95-130 and instructs Jenkins and Edberg to finish the editing of the comments for the source separation rule . Edberg seconded. Approved unanimously.

** Action 166-19 for Jenkins and Edberg: Edit the comments on pDAM-8 and forward to Winkler.

Jenkins moved that we reinstate Digital due to extenuating circumstances. Winkler seconded. Approved unanimously.

This is Ed Hart's last meeting as Chair. He expressed appreciation to Jenkins and Winkler for their service.

Jenkins moved that we thank Ed Hart for his service. Ksar seconded. Approved unanimously.

X3L2 also expressed appreciation to Mike Ksar for arranging meeting facilities and food.

The meeting was adjourned at 6:20 PM.