Minutes from the NCITS/L2 meeting # 185
Seattle, August 14-17, 2001



Meeting location:  The meeting is in building 42 (room 3600 on Tues; 4200 on the remaining days).  The street address is 15590 NE 31st St., Redmond, WA  98052.  For directions see meeting location.


1.                Opening of L2 meeting - remarks from the chair

Welcome.  Thanks to MS for hosting this meeting.

Reminder about the L2 mailing list – only subscribed members can post.  Please inform about changes to chair and Ed Hart.

New agenda items: 

2. Dave Thewlis, liaison from NCITS

8. Delegate to CT22 and SC22 plenary – Mike Ksar

10.3. Special meeting “Unicode in Programming Languages” during the next UTC/L2 meeting.


2.                Liaison from NCITS – Dave Thewlis

2.1.           Stabilized Standards

Dave gives a message about the status of the “stabilized standards” proposal in JTC1 – going forward.  He also explains the UK proposal for “obsolescent standards” , initially meant for hardware. 

2.2.           CT22 issue

The new problem was mentioned, that L2 is asked for input on ballots or comments of CT22 matters, for which no TC exists (e.g. Modula-2).  Dave promises that he will try to clarify the situation and report back the result of an effort to spare L2 from work for which we have no responsibility nor knowledge.  “No activity” needs to be administratively.

2.3.           JTC1 activities

Dave also reports the status of the US proposal for “direct participation”.  ISO does not want to destruct the existing structure, but would support a alternative method – “International Workshop Agreement” model has just been approved in the strategic planning meeting and will most likely be approved by the JTC1 plenary in Hawaii.  Concerns about circumventing the process for subjects that can’t make it through the formal process.  This is a implementation issue and deserves due consideration. 

Subcommittee structure seems to be stable; no efforts to change is visible. 

2.4.           SHARE Awards

Dave reads the paper prepared by Ed Hart about the 10646 – Unicode marriage.  Thanking Mike Ksar and Mark Davis for this effort. 

3.                Joint meeting with UTC

Arnold declares the session a technical ad-hoc between L2 and UTC. 

4.                Administrative agenda

4.1.           Attendance and membership

4.1.1.         Membership list

Apple, Compaq, HP, IBM, Microsoft, Oracle, PeopleSoft, Progress, RLG, SHARE, Sun, Sybase, Unicode, Unisys (14) .  We lost NCR and Xerox.

4.1.2.         Members in jeopardy

HP has not participated in the last two meetings and is therefore in jeopardy.

AI:  Arnold to send jeopardy letter to HP.

4.1.3.         Attendance

Present at the meeting:  Apple, Compaq, IBM, Microsoft, Peoplesoft, Sybase, Unicode, Unisys. Progress on Telephone.

E-mails for the letter ballots:  SHARE, RLG

Not voting:  HP, Sun, Oracle.


4.2.           Officers for L2

Winkler informs L2 that he will not run again for chair – we need to find a volunteer. 

Arnold recommends Cathy Wissink.  Vote:  anonymous

Winkler informs L2 that he will not run again for WG20 convenor – we need to control WG20 by having a US convenor.

Arnold recommends Sandra O’Donnell – she has to check with her management.  Vote:  anonymous


4.3.           Approval of meetings minutes from May 2001  [01-186]


4.4.           Action items follow-up  [01-187]

Done in the combined meeting. 

4.5.           Registration of new documents and assignment to the agenda

See L2/SD-3 for current document register


4.6.           Approval of agenda [01-296R]


4.7.           Next meetings

  UTC 89/L2 186 – November 6-9, 2001, Baltimore, host SHARE
  UTC 90/L2 187 – February 11-14, 2001, Bay Area, host Sun or Microsoft.

  UTC 91/L2 188 – May 7-10, 2002, Pleasanton, host Peoplesoft

Count for Baltimore:  Wissink, Kaplan, Whistler, Uma, Topy, Michel, Asmus, Gary, Mark, Lisa, Arnold

5.                Ballots

5.1.           Letter ballot response rate is unacceptable

5.2.           Ballots to vote :

Doc. #






FPDAM ballot and text for ISO/IEC 10646-1:2000, Amendment #1 – Mathematical symbols and other characters

SC2 N3530
SC2/WG2 N2364




DIS ballot for ISO/IEC 20970 – JEFF format
(Java class file format)



Abstain due to out of scope


Text for Ballot of Amendment #1 to ISO/IEC 14651: International string ordering, mandatory table

Alain LaBonté
SC22 N3242


Y with comments


Text for registration and CD ballot of ISO/IEC 15897 Registration of cultural elements

Keld Simonsen
SC22/WG20 N849


No with comments


Revised Text of FCD 8859-11
Part 11: Latin/Thai alphabet

Johan van Wingen
Surayuth Boonmatat
SC2 N3538


No, with comments


Draft comments to L2/01-273 are in L2/01-287, Sandra will send agreed upon updates on e-mail for L2/01-287R.

Comments to L2/01-269 (sort) are in L2/01-330.



5.3.           Re-affirmations for CT22


5.3.1.         PL/1 for 5 years ?

Out of scope

5.3.2.         Modula 2 for 5 years ?

Out of scope

5 questions: 



Modula 2




participate in revision



national standard ?



accepted without change?



ANSI number (if applicable)




5.4.           Ballot reports:


Doc. #






ISO/IEC DTR 14652 – “Specification method for cultural conventions “ for DTR ballot

Keld Simonsen
SC22/WG20 N822


NO, see


Text for FDIS ballot of ISO/IEC 6937  -- Coded graphic character set for text communication -- Latin alphabet

Keld Simonsen
SC2 N3522




5.5.           Requests for comments on registration :


Proposed ISO/IEC 15897 registration:
Finnish in Finland

SC22 N3263




Proposed ISO/IEC 15897 registration:
Norwegian Bokmål language locale for Norway

Norwegian Tech. Ctr.
SC22 N3264




Proposed ISO/IEC 15897 registration:
Swedish in Sweden

SC22 N3262




European generic locales: narrative cultural specifications, POSIX locales, and repertoiremap

CEN CWA 14051-2
SC22 3265



Based on discussions at the meeting, Sandra will send updated comments to the European locales in L2/01-282. 

Unanimous agreement to send comments in 282.

Addition:  we need to object to include information which we object to in 15897.

Norway:  object, a lot of information is not in line with what L2 expects in cultural conventions.

Clauses should not be included in such registries. 

5.6.           Comments on registrations


Request for comments:  Dealing with stabilized / obsolescent standards (US proposal to JTC1)

JTC1 N6455
SC2 N3534




6.                CLAUI meeting in Malvern (postponed from Tübingen)

Request for contributions.

Arnold:  since no documents or agenda items were received by 8/16 (deadline was 8/9) I have canceled the meeting in Malvern and sent a message to the CLAUI mailing list.  I have also updated the web site with the cancellation information


7.                Voting on joint UTC/L2 meeting recommendations [01-294]

The decisions of the combined meeting of UTC and L2 are approved.

8.                Delegate to CT22 and SC22 plenary

Mike Ksar, Microsoft, is prepared to represent L2 at the SC22 plenary as a member of the US delegation, he must be approved by CT22 on a recommendation from L2.  Mike will represent L2’s position to WG20 projects.

Vote:  11:0:3

9.                Delegates to SC2 and SC22/WG20 meetings (reconfirmation)

9.1.           SC22 plenary in Hawaii, September 2001 (confirm)

Winkler, Hiura, Ksar – Winkler will NOT be able to attend. 

AI:  write to Hiura, he is off the list. (done)

9.2.           SC2/WG2 meeting in Singapore, October 2001 (confirm)

Freytag, Suignard, Whistler, Davis, Ksar, Winkler, (Hart) – Winkler will NOT be able to attend

AI: confirm with Hart

9.3.           SC2 plenary in Singapore, October 2001 (confirm)

Freytag, Suignard, Whistler, Davis, Ksar, Winkler, Hart, Hiura – Winkler will NOT be able to attend

AI:  confirm with Hart and Hiura

9.4.           WG20 meeting in Malvern, October 2001

Whistler, Davis, O’Donnell, Winkler, Ksar.  Ksar will not be able to attend.

9.5.           CLAUI meeting in Malvern

Whistler, Davis, O’Donnell, Winkler, more ????   This meeting was canceled. 

10.           Other

10.1.       Hebrew/Aramaic

FYI: So far no request or official report.  Arnold has a private, intermediate report from Elaine that sounds quite promising. 

10.2.       Plan for a UTC Meeting with Assyriological/Cuneiform specialists

Planned for Baltimore ?  Working lunch in Seattle ?  What about the report from the meeting in Tübingen, Germany (in connection with the WG20 meeting in May 2001).

Rick knows more about it, some of the Assyriologists are right there in John Hopkins. 

AI: Lisa and Rick working with Ed to arrange the meeting, reporting time in UTC. 

Ken reports about a meeting with the text encioding initiative on October 27-28, 2001 in Berkley.  Rick and Ken will represent Unicode

10.3.       Unicode in Programming Languages

Plan for a invitation to Frank Farance, Tom Plum, and Clamage for a special session to discuss the situation, eliminate misunderstandings, and find recommended solutions.

Plan for being in connection with the UTC/L2 in Baltimore.  Plan to form a technical position for the USA in programming languages and the use of Unicode. 

Whom to invite:  ask convenors for nominations, C, C++, COBOL, Frank Farance, Doug Gwynn. 

11.           Adjournment

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