L2/04-361

Pre-Preliminary Minutes of the UTC 101 / L2 198 Joint Meeting
Cupertino, CA -- November 15-18, 2004
Hosted by Apple
UTC #101 Agenda 
November 22, 2004

Monday November 15, 2004

Meeting opened at 10:20 for Script Subcommittee issues.

Additional agenda items:
C.18 Hebrew
C.18.1 L2/04-346
C.18.2 Disunification costs L2/04-344
C.19 Yaphalaa
C.20 additional math chars

C.1 Script model [Davis, L2/04-146]

Discussed but no action taken.

C.5 Status on Vai encoding [Riley, L2/04-374]

Discussed but no action taken.

C.6 Proposal to add Greek Letter Lowercase Heta and Greek Letter Capital Heta [Nicholas, L2/04-388]

[101-A1] Action Item for Deborah Anderson: Find out what people are using currently with regard to Greek Letter Lowercase Heta and Greek Letter Capital Heta. Is this used in computerized form at all? Evidence does seem to be pretty good. Look at the Cyrillic precedents. L2/04-388.

[101-A2] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Report to Nick Nicholas re L2/04-388 (Greek Letter Lowercase Heta and Greek Letter Capital Heta) that the case is reasonably clear. The urgency of encoding is not clear. Have Nick get feedback and submit a "final" proposal for a future UTC meeting.

** Recommend to UTC that not oppose Heta/heta if it comes up in WG2 with further clarification and feedback.

C.7 Epigraphical Greek Letters: Request for preliminary opinion [Nicholas, L2/04-389]

** The case seems dubious for Tsan. Sampi might be stronger. If simply glyph variant, then it's weak to encode it as a separate char.

C.8 Proposal to encode Aktieselskab [Stoetzner, L2/04-394]

** Recommend that UTC accept Aktieselskab at 214D and not give it a compat decomp. Encode as a symbol with no case pairing.

C.9 Proposal to encode Capital Double S [Stoetzner, L2/04-395]

** Recommend to UTC that this not be encoded. We concur with Stoetzner.

C.10 Lanna Unicode: a draft proposal [Hosken, L2/04-351]

C.11 Preliminary proposal for Balinese (WG2 N2856) [Everson, L2/04-357]

** Recommend that UTC not approve it at this meeting, and that the UTC rep to the next WG2 meeting be instructed to oppose this for insertion in the FPDAM. (Not necessarily to oppose it for a new amendment.) [that we not favor new scripts coming into the FPDAM. If there is urgency, then it should be put into a PDAM and have WG2 start developing the next group of things to go in.]

12:00 break for lunch. Return at 12:45

C.12 Encoding of Gujarati Signs Pao, Addho & Pono in Gujarati code block [Manoj Jain (Government of India), L2/04-358]
C.12.1 Clarifications on L2/04-358, Gujarati fractions [Muller, L2/04-402]

** Recommend to UTC that Rick follow up with Manoj Jain -- they should do some revision and answer a few questions to improve the proposal and re-submit.

C.13 Proposal to add six characters for Kannada to the BMP [Everson, L2/04-364]

Eric has posted the arguments for/against on-line.

** Recommend that UTC issue a public review issue on the disunification of dandas.

** The remaining 4 chars in the proposal may be handled as normal repertoire issues. If this comes into WG2, UTC shouldn't oppose them.

C.16 Proposal to encode Lepcha [Government of India, L2/04-397]

** Recommend that Rick respond to Govt of India. Thank them and respond with specific comments on the proposal, and point them to other existing proposals and implementations of Lepcha.

C.17 Proposal to encode Vedic accents, etc. [Government of India, L2/04-398]

** UTC officers to respond generally to Gvot of India on the Vedic proposal. Specific questions: why are they characters with virama explicitly dis-unified with Devanagari? And so forth. Wa and Va Oriya may be in the wrong place? Gurmukhi letter to be moved?

** Convene an ad hoc meeting on Indic issues except Lepcha: Eric Uma Cathy Michka Rick Ken. Report back by Thursday. Also take up C.19 Yaphalaa.

C.18 Hebrew issues.

** Recommend that UTC swap the two Hebrew codepointsw as in L2/04-346.

C.2 Proposal to encode additional Latin orthographic characters [Priest, L2/04-372]

** Recommend to UTC: L with tilde should be named L with middle tilde. Straight apostrophe should not be encoded. Already accepted latin capital letter L with bar at U+023D and it's on the ballot. Capital letter L with double bar would be a better name. Other 5 chars should be encoded, with abovementioned name changes. Could be encoded in Latin Extended B.

** Roadmap committee to get together in a break & provide codepoints. U+2C60 and following.

C.3 Revised Proposal for Additional Latin Phonetic and Orthographic Characters (replaces L2/04-246R) [Priest, L2/04-348]

** Recommend to accept the C4-CA (diacritics). Accept the 21 thingamajigs at the codepoints given in the doc L2/04-348.

C.4 Proposal to Encode Chinantec Tone Marks and Orthographic 'at' Characters (replaces part of L2/04-246R) [Priest, L2/04-349]

** Take up L204-349 during B.12.2.3 for the @ chars.

** Encode the 4 modifier tone letters. A717, A718..A71A.

C.20 Progress Report on Math Symbols

** Schedule an ad hoc on math symbols: Asmus, Murray, Ken, Rick.

Break at 2:55 - 3:25

Start Plenary at 3:25.

Roll call: 10 regular members, one half-member. Quorum 7. 10.5 voting members present.

No new docs need to be registered. No further additions to the agenda.

Approval of minutes for meeting 100.

[101-C1] Consensus: Approve the minutes for UTC #100 as amended in committee. (Notes: consensus 100-C16 codepoints are incorrect. Remove Sandra from the attendee list. Page 13 consensus 100-C31 has an extra "b" in Arabic.)

[101-A3] Action Item for Asmus Freytag: Write a description of Mongolian shaping so we can get it into Unicode 5.0.

Calendar of meetings. Add Q4 2005 meeting November 1-4, 2005, at Adobe, San Jose. August 2005 UTC dates changed to 16-19 August, host Microsoft, Redmond.

Remove B.2 from the agenda. WG20 is defunct. B.14.1 done. B.14.3 done.

B.14.4 Report on Editorial Committee.

Add agenda item B.14.5 to authorize a 4.1 beta.

B.14.2.1.1 Erratum for Unicode 4.0 / ISO/IEC 10646:2003 [Freytag, Yergeau, L2/04-366]
B.14.2.1.2 Question about erratum on Arrows [Scherer, L2/04-393]

[101-C2] Consensus: Ask the officers to amend the stability policies to permit changes in representative glyph in cases where there is a contradiction with the identity of the character as defined through other properties.

[101-A4] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Notify Magda to add the question of updating stability policy to the officers agenda for Friday Nov 19, and convey the results back to UTC at the next meeting. DONE.

[101-M1] Motion: Swap glyphs for U+2B08 U+2B09 and post as an erratum.

Moved by Ken Whistler, 2nd Eric Muller

9.5 for
0 against
1 abstain (Justsystem)

Motion 101-M1 carries.

[101-A5] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, Editorial Committee: Fix glyphs and post erratum for U+2B08 U+2B09. Prepare a document for WG2 notifying them of needed corrigendum.

B.14.2.3 Defect Report to correct reference glyph for U+01B3 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y WITH HOOK [LaBonte, L2/04-399]

[101-C3] Consensus: Change the glyph for U+01B3 to have the hook on the right and document that glyphs with the hook on the left also occur.

[101-A6] Action Item for Rick McGowan, Editorial Committee: Create an FAQ documenting the range of acceptable glyph variants. Start with Figure 7.1 from the book. Include a pointer to MS Typography website for more information. See also 1.0 glyph variations in the book, and also include U+01B3.

[101-A7] Action Item for Michel Suignard: Add to the ballot comments to change the glyph for U+01B3 to have the hook on the right.

Meeting closed at 5:30

Tuesday November 16, 2004

10 members present.

** August 2005 UTC changed to 16-19 August, host Microsoft Redmond. See above.

Public Review Issues.

B.12.1 Issue 39: Review of Draft Unicode Standard Annex #31: Identifier and Pattern Syntax
B.12.1.1 Feedback [L2/04-391]

[101-C4] Consensus: Advance draft UAX #31 to "final" UAX #31 in Unicode 4.1, after deleting mention of levels in the conformance statements.

[101-A8] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Update the draft UAX #31 and post as final UAX #31.

[101-A9] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close PRI #39. Draft is advanced with modification.

[101-C5] Consensus: Modify the description in UCD.html to reflect that both SpecialCasing.txt and CaseFolding.txt are required by a conformance clause in the standard, and should be described as such in the documentation.

[101-A10] Action Item for Ken Whistler, Editorial Committee: Update the descriptions of the files SpecialCasing.txt and CaseFolding.txt as mentioned in 101-C5 above for Unicode 4.1.

[101-A11] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, Editorial Committee: Add language to Chapter 3 (Conformance) to clarify that conformance to default casing is not required. Conformant implementations can override C20.

B.12.2 Issue 40: Encoding Latin Capital and Small Letter "At"
B.12.2.1 Feedback [L2/04-391]
B.12.2.2 The case against encoding the Koalib @-letters (PRI #40) [Ewell, L2/04-365]

[101-C6] Consensus: The UTC would need more compelling evidence to encode the Latin upper and lower case @ letters. However, the UTC will also not change the properties of the existing at sign U+0040.

[101-A12] Action Item for Rick McGowan, Editorial Committee: Close PRI #40 documenting that there is no compelling evidence of usage to date. And the UTC will not change the properties of the existing @ sign U+0040 to be a letter.

B.12.3 Issue 41: Encoding INVISIBLE LETTER
B.12.3.1 Feedback [L2/04-391]

[101-M2] Motion: Accept the invisible letter for encoding with name and codepoint as specified in L2/04-268.

Moved by Ken Whistler, Rick McGowan

3 for (Sybase Sun, Oracle)
6 against (MS RLG HP Apple Adobe IBM)
1.5 abstain (Basis, Justsystem)

Motion 101-M2 fails.

[101-A13] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close PRI #41. The proposal to encode "invisible letter" was rejected.

[101-M3] Motion: Add Invisible Letter to the reject list.

Moved by Mark Davis, seconded by V S Umamaheswaran

5 for (IBM Adobe Apple RLG MS)
0.5 against (Basis)
5 abstain (Sybase Sun Just Oracle HP)

Motion 101-M5 fails.

[101-A14] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, WG2 Delegates: Oppose the encoding of Invisible Letter L2/04-268.

B.12.4 Issue 42: Review of Proposed Draft Unicode Standard Annex #34: Unicode Named Character Sequences

[101-A14a] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, Editorial Committee: Update the UAX #34 draft. NOTES: Clarify why variation selectors are not documented here. Get text from Ken Whistler.

Lunch 12:05 - 1:20.

Math ad hoc scheduled Wednesday 5-6 in the iPod Room.

[101-C7] Consensus: Do not have a part in the names of named character sequences that uniquely identifies them as such.

[101-A15] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, Michel Suignard: Report to WG2 the UTC rationale for not using unique identifier prefixes with named character sequences.

[101-C8] Consensus: Advance Proposed Draft UAX #34 to Draft UAX #34 after incorporating input recieved during the meeting.

[101-A16] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, Editorial Committee: Update and post UAX #34 as a Draft UAX. Post by Dec 31, 2004.

[101-A17] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Post PRI for Draft UAX #34. Post by Dec 31, 2004 to close January 31, 2005.

[101-A18] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close PRI #42. The draft is advanced.

[101-C9] Consensus: Propose that UTC run the named char sequences process, and if the are any issues, involve WG2.

** Ad hoc Tues 5-6, and Thursday 12-1 backup.

B.12.8 Issue 46: Proposal for encoded representations of meteg

[101-M4] Motion: UTC approves the method for representing Meteg by using the control characters CGJ, ZWJ, and ZWNJ to control positioning of Meteg, as documented in L2/04-194.

Moved by Mark Davis, seconded by Rick McGowan

7 for
0 against
2 abstain (Adobe, RLG)
Basis and Sun are out of the room

Motion 101-M4 carries.

[101-A19] Action Item for Mike Ksar, Peter Constable, Editorial Committee: Document the behavior of Meteg and CGJ, ZWJ, and ZWNJ for Unicode 4.1.

[101-A20] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close PRI #46. Proposal was approved and will be documented in Unicode 4.1.

B.12.5 Issue 43: Review of Proposed Draft Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names

[101-C10] Consensus: Advance PU UAX #24 to UAX #24 for Unicode 4.1, with modifications received during discussion.

[101-A21] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, Editorial Committee: Update UAX #24 for 4.1, with modifications received during discussion at UTC.

[101-A22] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close PRI #43 Script Names. Was advanced to final approved report.

B.12.6 Issue 44: Bidi Category of Fullwidth Solidus

[101-C11] Consensus: Change the bidi category of U+FF0F FULLWIDTH SOLIDUS from ES to CS.

[101-C12] Consensus: Create a Public Review Issue regarding changing the bidi category of seven compatibility characters from "ET" to "ES":

    U+207A SUPERSCRIPT PLUS SIGN

    U+208A SUBSCRIPT PLUS SIGN
    U+FB29 HEBREW LETTER ALTERNATIVE PLUS SIGN
    U+FE62 SMALL PLUS SIGN
    U+FE63 SMALL HYPHEN-MINUS
    U+FF0B FULLWIDTH PLUS SIGN
    U+FF0D FULLWIDTH HYPHEN-MINUS

Also included in this PRI should be questions on 2212 MINUS SIGN, U+207B superscript, and U+208B subscript minus sign.

[101-A23] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Create PRI and post by Nov 24 to close January 31, 2005. Double check the categories. Note put "characters used for math" in the title of the PRI somewhere.

[101-A24] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close PRI #44. The category was changed.

[101-A25] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Ping Murray when the PRI on changing the bidi category of seven compatibility characters from ET to ES goes live to make sure that the math community looks at it.

B.12.7 Issue 45: Bidi Category of NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE

[101-C13] Consensus: Change the Bidi category of Narrow No-Break Space (NNBSP, U+202F) from "WS" to "CS".

[101-A26] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Change the bidi category of Narrow No-Break Space (NNBSP, U+202F) from "WS" to "CS" for Unicode 4.1.

[101-A27] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close the PRI #45. The category was changed.

B.12.10 Issue 48: Definition of "directional run"

Delay resolution until tomorrow. ** See below, day 4.

B.12.11 Issue 49: Review of Proposed Update Unicode Technical Standard #6: A Standard Compression Scheme for Unicode

[101-C14] Consensus: Approve PU UTS #6 after review by Editorial Committee and taking into account the wording of issue raised by public feedback in L2/04-391.

[101-A28] Action Item for Markus Scherer, Editorial Compression: Update UTS #6 and post ASAP.

[101-A29] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close PRI #49. Draft accepted.

B.12.13 Issue 51: Review of Proposed Update Unicode Standard Annex #29: Text Boundaries

[101-A30] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Update and incorporate changes in L2/04-405 into UAX #29.

B.12.14 Issue 52: Review of Proposed Draft Unicode Technical Report #36: Security Considerations

[101-C15] Consensus: Advance Prop Draft UTR #36 to Draft, after including feedback received in the UTC meeting.

** Title will be "Unicode-Related Security Considerations".

[101-A31] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Post DUTR #36 by Dec 31, 2004.

[101-A32] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Post DUTR #36 by Dec 31, 2004 after Mark's draft is completed.

[101-A33] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close PRI #52. Will be advanced to "Draft UTR".

B.12.15 Issue 53: Review of Proposed Draft Unicode Technical Report #33: Unicode Conformance Model

[101-A34] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Extend the review period for PRI #53 to January 31, 2005 and announce the extension ASAP.

[101-A35] Action Item for Asmus Freytag: Produce a new committee draft for UTR #33.

B.12.16 Issue 54: Review of Proposed Update Unicode Technical Standard #22: Character Mapping Markup Language

[101-A36] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Extend review period for PRI #54 to January 31, 2005, and announce the extension ASAP.

B.12.17 Issue 55: Proposed change to character properties for two Katakana characters

[101-C16] Consensus: Change the General Category of U+30FB KATAKANA MIDDLE DOT and U+FF65 HALFWIDTH KATAKANA MIDDLE DOT from "Pc" to "Po".

[101-A37] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Update the properties of U+30FB and U+FF65 for Unicode 4.1 to change the General Category of U+30FB KATAKANA MIDDLE DOT and U+FF65 HALFWIDTH KATAKANA MIDDLE DOT from "Pc" to "Po".

[101-A38] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close PRI #55 and post the resolution ASAP.

[101-A39] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Remove U+30FB and U+FF65 from the special handling in UAX #29.

B.12.18 Issue 56: Review of Proposed Update Unicode Standard Annex #14: Line Breaking Properties

[101-A40] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Extend PRI #56 to close on January 31, 2005.

[101-A41] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, Editorial Committee: Refresh the document and PRI for PU UAX #14 by December 31, 2004.

[101-A42] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Post updated PRI #56 when Asmus finishes the update in December, to close January 31, 2005.

Meeting adjourned at 5:00

Day 3. Wednesday Nov 17, 2004.

Meeting opened after members meeting at 9:30. 10.5 members present.

B.11.1 CLDR Liaison report [Davis]

[101-A43] Action Item for Mark Davis: Get the Indic list group more involved with the CLDR activities (gathering & vetting data).

[101-A44] Action Item for Lisa Moore, Magda Danish: Ask Magda to collect e-mail IDS from TDIL info to use to contact for CLDR activities.

[101-A45] Action Item for Mark Davis: Write up a CLDR liaison report.

[101-A46] Action Item for Cathy Wissink: Forward the CLDR liaison report on behalf of L2 to John Hill, SC22 Chair.

B.12.9 Issue 47: Changes to default collation of Latin in UCA

[101-M5] Motion: Accept changes for the ten characters and their lower cases given in L2/04-407 section 1 (primary weights) and section 2 (secondary weights).

Moved by Mark Davis, seconded by V S Umamaheswaran

6 for
4 against (MS, Sybase, Sun, Justsystem)
0 abstain
Basis out of the room.

Motion 101-M5 carries.

[101-A47] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Update the UCA to reflect the above motion 101-M5 for Unicode 4.1.

[101-A48] Action Item for Mark Davis: Document the changes in the UCA for acceptance of above motion re L2/04-407.

[101-A49] Action Item for Mark Davis: Convey the changes in UCA to the SC2 14651 editing group, including the rationale for the next amendment.

[101-A50] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close PRI #47, with resolution as per the above motion 101-M5.

B.12.12 Issue 50: Review of Proposed Update Unicode Technical Standard #18: Unicode Regular Expressions

Lunch 12:00 - 1:00

[101-M6] Motion: Add circled letters A through Z, upper and lowercase, (U+24B6 - U+24E9), to the "Other_Alphabetic" property in Proplist.txt.

Moved by Mark Davis, Seconded by Ken Whistler

7 for (MS Sybase HP Apple Justsystem, ???)
0.5 against (1/2 Basis)
3 abstain (RLG Adobe Sun)

Motion 101-M6 carries.

[101-A51] Action Item for Mark Davis: Make changes per motion 101-M6 (circled letters) in PropList.txt for Unicode 4.1 and the superset test to the invariant test.

[101-A52] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Update UTS #18 with the changes of alphabetic property of the cirlced letters in Annex C.

[101-C17] Consensus: Advance the proposed update to UTS #18 to UTS #18 final, after incorporating results of the discussion. Changes to alphabetic and wording changes to be discussed with Peter Linsley to address his issues in document L2/04-391.

[101-A53] Action Item for Mark Davis: Work with Peter Linsley to resolve editorial issues with UTS #18.

[101-A54] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Update and post UTS #18.

[101-A55] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close PRI #50. Draft will be advanced.

B.15.1 Unicode 1 Hangul Mapping Errors [West, L2/04-392]

[101-A56] Action Item for V S Umamaheswaran: Verify that the known Hangul mapping errors documented in L2/04-392 have not been propagated into IBM mappings tables.

[101-A57] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Add the conclusion of L2/04-392 to a "readme" file in the same directory as the HANGUL.TXT file, pending outcome of the investigation by Asmus Freytag and V S Umamaheswaran.

Break from 1:55 to 2:15

B.1.7 CJK Ideograph source visual references information [Suignard, L2/04-400]

[101-M7] Motion: Request that the IRG provide reference visual information for the sources for all CJK Unified Ideographs, both for those currently encoded and for future additions.

Moved by Michel Suignard, seconded by V S Umamaheswaran

8 for
1 against (Sun)
1.5 abstain (Justsystem, Basis)

Motion 101-M7 carries.

[101-A58] Action Item for John Jenkins, Hideki Hiura: Relay the UTC position on visual reference information to the IRG, and offer Unicode Consortium assistance with hosting the data.

B.14.2.2 CJK font for Extension B [Freytag L2/04-408]

[101-C18] Consensus: UTC accepts the 12 CJK Ext B glyph changes documented in the "G source" column of section T.18 of document L2/04-408.

[101-A59] Action Item for Michel Suignard: Include the above consensus 101-C18 in FPDAM 1 ballot comments. (UTC accepts the 12 CJK Ext B glyph changes documented in the "G source" column of section T.18 of document L2/04-408.)

[101-A60] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, Editorial Committee: Prepare an erratum for the 12 glyphs mentioned in section T.18 of document L2/04-408.

[101-A61] Action Item for Richard Cook, Editorial Committee: Review the other 299 glyphs discussed in document L2/04-408 (CJK Extension B) with potential glyph errors plus known glyph errata after the initial publication of Unicode 3.2 and submit to WG2 as a Unicode/US contribution.

C.15 Unencoded CJK Ideographs: Proposal to add kXHC data to Unihan.txt [Cook, L2/04-373]

[101-C19] Consensus: Add a field to Unihan that contains the Pinyin readings and mapping data for the approximately 14000 ideographic characters from the XHC source as a provisional data field, after Unicode 4.1.

[101-A62] Action Item for Richard Cook: Proof the Pinyin readings and mapping data for the approximately 14000 ideographic characters from the XHC source and supply info to John Jenkins to update the Unihan database.

[101-A63] Action Item for John Jenkins: Update the Unihan database with the new field from XHC source readings, and document the new field.

B.15.4 Cuneiform properties [McGowan, L2/04-354]

[101-A64] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Use the property info in L2/04-354 when updating data file updates for Cuneiform for Unicode 5.0.

[101-A65] Action Item for Asmus Freytag: Take linebreak info for Cuneiform from document L2/04-354 into account when updating UAX #14 for Unicode 5.0.

C.14 Proposal to add a block of CJK Basic Strokes to the UCS [Bishop, Cook, L2/04-367]

[101-C20] Consensus: Support the name changes for U+31C4 and U+31C3 in L2/04-408 section T.8.

[101-A66] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Update the pipeline with name changes for U+31C4 and U+31C3 as per L2/04-408 section T.8.

[101-A67] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Update the 4.1 data files with the new names for U+31C4 and U+31C3 as per L2/04-408 section T.8.

B.1.3 WG2 action items [Umamaheswaran]

[101-A68] Action Item for Richard Cook: Document a response to WG2 action item 44-6C and send to Mike Ksar for consideration at the next WG2 meeting.

B.1.6 FPDAM1 and PDAM2
B.1.6.1 Comments on PDAM1 [Suignard L2/04-408]

Meeting adjourned at 5:15

Day 4, November 18, 2004

L2 meeting convened at 9:25.
6 members present. Yahoo present as observer.
Approval of L2 minutes from last meeting.
L2 meeting adjourned at 9:30.

Joint UTC/L2 meeting opened at 9:30.

Subcommittee recommendations for script issues.

C.6 Proposal to add Greek Letter Lowercase Heta and Greek Letter Capital Heta [Nicholas, L2/04-388]

[101-A69] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, WG2 Liaisons: Do not oppose Heta/heta if the proposal comes up in WG2 with further clarification and feedback.

[101-A70] Action Item for Deborah Anderson: Follow up with Nick Nicholas on Heta proposal.

C.7 Epigraphical Greek Letters: Request for preliminary opinion [Nicholas, L2/04-389]

[101-A71] Action Item for Deborah Anderson: Relay to Nick Nicholas that UTC concurs with his doubts about these characters. The case seems dubious for Tsan. Sampi might be stronger. If simply glyph variant, then it's weak to encode it as a separate char.

C.8 Proposal to encode Aktieselskab [Stoetzner, L2/04-394]

[101-C21] Consensus: UTC accepts the character U+214D AKTIESELSKAB for encoding. Accept as a symbol with no case pairing, and do not give it a compatibility decomposition.

[101-A72] Action Item for Deborah Anderson: Work with Stoetzner to create a WG2 proposal form and forward to Mike Ksar for consideration at the January 2005 meeting, by December 31, 2004.

[101-A73] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Update the pipeline to include the encoding of the character U+214D AKTIESELSKAB. L2/04-394

C.9 Proposal to encode Capital Double S [Stoetzner, L2/04-395]

[101-C22] Consensus: The UTC concurs with Stoetzner L2/04-395 that capital double S is a typographical issue. Therefore the UTC believes it is inappropriate to encode it as a separate character.

[101-A74] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Add capital double S to the reject list.

[101-A75] Action Item for Deborah Anderson: Relay results of the above consensus 101-C22 to Stoetzner.

C.10 Lanna Unicode: a draft proposal [Hosken, L2/04-351]

[101-A76] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Follow up with Martin Hosken on L2/04-351 with several questions expressed during the meeting. [[Question from Ken: What is a "sign syllable joiner"? This raises a big red flag. Different from sub-joiner? (That's the virama; this name will confuse everyone.) Subjoined forms should be spelled out along with the table that he gives, to avoid ambiguity. (This was a problem with Khmer.)]]

C.11 Preliminary proposal for Balinese (WG2 N2856) [Everson, L2/04-357]

[101-A77] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, WG2 Liaisons: UTC does not approve Balinese, and the UTC rep to the next WG2 meeting is instructed to oppose this for insertion in the FPDAM because it is not mature enough.

** Not necessarily to oppose it for a new amendment. [UTC is not in favor new scripts coming into the FPDAM. If there is urgency, then it should be put into a PDAM and have WG2 start developing the next group of things to go in.]

C.12 Encoding of Gujarati Signs Pao, Addho & Pono in Gujarati code block [Manoj Jain (Government of India), L2/04-358]
C.12.1 Clarifications on L2/04-358, Gujarati fractions [Muller, L2/04-402]

[101-A78] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Follow up with Manoj Jain on this proposal L2/04-358. Request some minor revision and answer a few questions to improve the proposal, then ask him to re-submit it for the next meeting. Thank him for the submission.

[101-A79] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, WG2 Liaisons: Support the UTC position that Gujarati sign proposal L2/04-358 is not mature enough for acceptance.

C.13 Proposal to add six characters for Kannada to the BMP [Everson, L2/04-364]

** Eric has posted the arguments for/against on-line.

[101-C23] Consensus: The proposal for encoding of danda and double danda for Kannada is not mature because UTC wants a comprehensive approach to decide whether or not to disunify several dandas.

[101-A80] Action Item for Rick McGowan, Editorial Committee: Document and post a public review issue on the disunification of dandas.

[101-C24] Consensus: The UTC would not oppose addition of the remaining 4 chars in the proposal L2/04-364 (i.e., excluding dandas). UTC wouldn't oppose them if the issue comes into WG2.

[101-A81] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, WG2 Liaisons: Oppose the addition of the Kannada danda & double danda, but not the other 4 characters in L2/04-364.

C.16 Proposal to encode Lepcha [Government of India, L2/04-397]

[101-A82] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Respond to Govt of India. Thank them and respond with specific comments on the proposal, and point them to other existing proposals and implementations of Lepcha, requesting a dialog.

C.17 Proposal to encode Vedic accents, etc. [Government of India, L2/04-398]

[101-C25] Consensus: Ask the officers to get input from V S Umamaheswaran and respond to Om Vikas (Gov't of India) on the Vedic proposal L2/04-398. ((Specific questions: why are the characters with virama explicitly dis-unified with Devanagari? And so forth. Wa and Va Oriya may be in the wrong place? Gurmukhi letter to be moved?))

** Action was done to contact Magda and put on the agenda for Officers meeting on Friday Nov 19.

C.18 Hebrew issues.

[101-C26] Consensus: UTC approves assigning U+05BA HOLAM HASER FOR VAV and U+05C7 QAMATS QATAN. (This is a swap of the previously approved codepoints.)

[101-A83] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Update the pipeline to reflect a swap of the previously approved codepoints: to assign U+05BA HOLAM HASER FOR VAV and U+05C7 QAMATS QATAN.

[101-A84] Action Item for Michel Suignard: Add above consensus 100C26 on U+05BA HOLAM HASER FOR VAV and U+05C7 QAMATS QATAN to US comments on the FPDAM 1.

[101-A85] Action Item for Deborah Anderson: Follow up with Peter Kirk et al regarding UTC approval to assign U+05BA HOLAM HASER FOR VAV and U+05C7 QAMATS QATAN..

C.2 Proposal to encode additional Latin orthographic characters [Priest, L2/04-372]

[101-C27] Consensus: Acccept 5 Latin Orthographic characters and codepoints:

U+2C60 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER DOUBLE-BARRED L
U+2C61 LATIN SMALL LETTER DOUBLE-BARRED L
U+2C62 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER L WITH MIDDLE TILDE
    * lowercase is U+026B
U+2C63 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER P WITH STROKE
    * lowercase is in the pipeline
U+2C64 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER R WITH TAIL
    * lowercase is U+027D

and put into a new block with name "Latin Extended C". Document reference L2/04-372.

[101-A86] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Add to pipeline the 5 latin additions from the above consensus 101-C27.

[101-A87] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Add modifier letter straight apostrophe to the reject list.

[101-A88] Action Item for Michel Suignard: Add 5 latin letters to US ballot comments for PDAM 2.

[101-A89] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Work with Lorna Priest to update proposal L2/04-372 and forward to Mike Ksar for WG2 by December 31, 2004. Include the new names as documented in the above consensus 101-C27.

C.3 Revised Proposal for Additional Latin Phonetic and Orthographic Characters (replaces L2/04-246R) [Priest, L2/04-348]

** UTC accepted the C4-CA (diacritics). Accept the 21 characters at the codepoints given in the documented L2/04-348 at the last meeting.

[101-A90] Action Item for Michel Suignard: Add 21 orthographic chars to US PDAM comments.

[101-A91] Action Item for Mike Ksar: Pick up document L2/04-348 for WG2.

C.4 Proposal to Encode Chinantec Tone Marks and Orthographic 'at' Characters (replaces part of L2/04-246R) [Priest, L2/04-349]

[101-C28] Consensus: Accept the 4 modifier tone letters of document L2/04-349 for encoding:

U+A717 MODIFIER LETTER DOT VERTICAL BAR
U+A718 MODIFIER LETTER DOT SLASH
U+A719 MODIFIER LETTER DOT HORIZONTAL BAR
U+A71A MODIFIER LETTER LOWER RIGHT CORNER ANGLE

[101-A92] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Update the pipeline to include the 4 modifier tone letters of document L2/04-349 as above.

[101-A93] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Follow up with Lorna Priest to update the WG2 form (remove @ chars) and give the correct codepoints, and forward to WG2 by Dec 31.

[101-A94] Action Item for Michel Suignard: Add to PDAM 2 comments.

** Note: see previous consensus re @ chars.

Break at 10:35 until 10:45.

C.20 Math

[101-C29] Consensus: Accept the 26 math characters in L2/04-410 for inclusion in Unicode 5.0.

[101-A95] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Update the pipeline to include acceptance of the 26 math characters in L2/04-410 for inclusion in Unicode 5.0.

[101-A96] Action Item for Michel Suignard: Add the 26 math characters in L2/04-410 to the US PDAM 2 comments.

[101-A97] Action Item for Asmus Freytag: Update the proposal L2/04-410 with documentary evidence, name correction, and other editorial updates. Include character properties and linebreak properties. Forward to Mike Ksar by Dec 31, 2004 for consideration at the WG2 meeting in January 2005.

C.20.1 Math L2/04-411

No action taken.

B.15.2 Requirements for adding and updating Unicode properties [Freytag, L2/04-350 (also L2/04-183)]

[101-A98] Action Item for Lisa Moore: Add L2/04-350 to the agenda of the next meeting.

B.15.3 Saurashtra Linebreaking and Other Properties [McGowan, L2/04-352]

[101-A99] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Forward L2/04-352 to Mike Ksar for WG2 posting.

B.15.5 Combining Classes & Typographical Interaction [Whistler, L2/04-359]

[101-A100] Action Item for Ken Whistler, Editorial Committee: Prepare draft chapter 3 text on combining classes and typographical interaction for Unicode 5.0 based on L2/04-359, for review at the next meeting (Feb 2005).

Report of the Indic ad-hoc [Muller L2/004-418]

[101-A101] Action Item for Rick McGowan, Editorial Committee: Draft and post a PRI on disunification of dandas. (The UTC has had a request to disfunify a number of dandas. Consult with Eric on the precise list. Post by December 17, 2004 to close on Jan 31, 2005.

[101-A102] Action Item for Rick McGowan, Editorial Committee: Write and post a PRI text on eyelash-ra stating that UTC is considering it. Post by December 17, 2004 to close January 31, 2005.

[101-A103] Action Item for Rick McGowan, Editorial Committee: Respond to Sengupta thanking him for his paper L2/04-335R2. The UTC will take no further action on Bengali yaphalaa. Cite PRI #9. (Insufficient evidence for the need in the writing system.)

** We need to clarify what happens now when there *isn't* a non-joiner or joiner. The standard is now ambiguous. **

[101-A104] Action Item for Rick McGowan, Editorial Committee: Write and post a PRI text stating that the UTC is considering adding 5 chillu characters for Malayalam. With the pros and cons spelled out. Post by December 17, 2004 to close January 31, 2005. Consult with Eric re the details. Point out that the standard is ambiguous regarding the situation, and *if* the characters are not encoded, ask for opinions on the resolution of the ambiguity within the standard.

B.12.10.2 Resolution of 100-A36

[101-C30] Consensus: Change the joining type of U+06C2 ARABIC LETTER HEH GOAL WITH HAMZA ABOVE to be the same as U+06C1 ARABIC LETTER HEH GOAL (dual joining).

[101-A105] Action Item for Ken Whistler: U+06C2 ARABIC LETTER HEH GOAL WITH HAMZA ABOVE to be the same as U+06C1 ARABIC LETTER HEH GOAL (dual joining) in the data files for Unicode 4.1.

[101-A106] Action Item for Mark Davis: Determine what to do about the joining group identification of U+06C3 ARABIC LETTER TEH MARBUTA GOAL. Take to the bidi subcommittee. Based on the determination, include any change in the beta.

[101-A107] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Use the property name "No_Joining_Group" instead of "".

Quorum adjustment: Sun is now present. Justsystem is present by proxy.

B.12.10 L2/04-391

[101-C31] Consensus: Change the definition of "directional run" to be the same as "level run" in UAX #9.

[101-A108] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Add to the UAX #9 update the definition of directional run being the same as level run.

[101-A109] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Post a Public Review Issue for UAX #9 when the draft is available from Mark. Note when posting the UAX #9 PRI, include clarifying the change that has been made to directional run definition. ((Note the update of UAX #9 is forthcoming, see last meeting for authorization to post the update))

New agenda item B.1.8 Phags-pa L2/04-412, L2/04-413, L2/04-414, L2/04-415.

[101-A110] Action Item for Michel Suignard: Add to US PDAM2 ballot comments that the UTC re-affirms the architecture of the Phags-pa encoding in PDAM 2.

** New agenda item B.17 IVS L2/04-420

B.1.6.1 FPADAM 1 L2/04-408

[101-C32] Consensus: Accept the FPDAM 1 ballot comments as documented in L2/04-408.

B.1.6.2 PDAM 2 L2/04-409

[101-C33] Consensus: Accept the PDAM 2 comments as documented in L2/04-409.

** Break at 2:00 - 2:15.

B.12.13 UAX #29 (again)

[101-C34] Consensus: Change the definition of "numeric" for both word and sentence break in UAX #29 to be all characters of general category "Nd" plu U+066B and U+066C. And issue a Proposed Update of UAX #29.

** See also previous

[101-A111] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Prepare a proposed update UAX #29 by December 17, 2004.

[101-A112] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Extend PRI #51 to January 31 and post another update of UAX #29 with Mark's updates by December 17, and announce that update when ready.

[101-A113] Action Item for Rick McGowan, Asmus Freytag: Verify the open updates and proposed updates for all UTR/UAX/UTS. There should be 8.

B.17 IVS ad hoc report L2/04-420

[101-C35] Consensus: The UTC approves the general direction on registering ideographic variation sequences as documented in L2/04-219 amended by L2/04-420 and further amended during discussion.

[101-A114] Action Item for Eric Muller, Editorial Committee: Create a working draft UTS #YY: Registration of Ideographic Variation Sequences.

[101-A115] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, WG2 Liaisons: Include notification on registration of Ideographic Variation Sequences in the liaison report to WG2.

B.13.1 Collation L2/04-421

Quorum note: RLG arrived in person.

[101-C36] Consensus: Approve updating the definition of minimal match and the addition of two definitions for maximal and medium definitions to UTS #10, and include in the proposed update (to be issused per previous meeting) for Unicode 4.1.

[101-A116] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Issue a proposed update UTS #10 which includes two new definitions and changed def and other changes.

[101-A117] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Create a proposed update to UTS #10 by December 31, 2004.

[101-A118] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Post PRI for the proposed update of UTS #10 by December 31, 2004 to close January 31, 2005.

B.14.5 Issuing a 4.1 Beta

[101-C37] Consensus: Authorize issuing a Unicode 4.1 beta to close Jan 31.

[101-A119] Action Item for Ken Whistler, Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Issue a Unicode 4.1 beta to close January 31, 2005.

[101-A120] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Announce Unicode 4.1 beta when Ken and Mark have files and info ready and posted.

UTC meeting adjourned at 3:15.

L2 meeting followed

Attendance Roster