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 Post subject: Yiddish quotation mark and accent mark
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:04 pm 
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I would like to propose two new characters be added to the Hebrew block. One would be an opening quotation mark for Yiddish, and the other would be an accent mark for Hebrew fonts (as in a dictionary). I have never done this before, so would appreciate help on how to proceed. I have written up a sample proposal, which is attached. I welcome any and all input! Thank you very much!

[EDIT: Updated the PDF, see new link below]
Link to PDF of current proposal: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B2CnAU ... VZvZFJzTHc


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 Post subject: Re: Yiddish quotation mark and accent mark
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Just a quick gut reaction is that the accent mark is U+0301. Remember that combining diacritical marks are script independent, so unless there is a compelling reason to create a separately encoded Yiddish accent mark, it won't make it. My second reaction is that if you have multiple example texts that use the low gershayim, that it is a perfect candidate for encoding. Take a look at some other proposals for small additions to already existing scripts like http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n4030.pdf, to see what a full proposal looks like. The last two pages are some technical stuff, and you want to read carefully over http://www.unicode.org/pending/proposals.html and all the links therein. If you need someone to make the font for submission, I can probably pop it out in about 10 minutes. Please feel free to ask any questions, as there are several of us around who have gone through much more involved proposals.


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 Post subject: Re: Yiddish quotation mark and accent mark
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:14 pm 
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I will definitely peruse the links you sent, thank you. I also have many more examples of the low gershayim, so I'll gather those together. With regards to the accent, do you mean that it's up to font to allow for interaction of U+0301 with the Hebrew block? My only consideration, which I guess I didn't address in the original proposal, is that it may be useful to have different width accent on longer vowels (for example, the vowel U+05F2 is significantly wider than the vowel U+05D5). Three questions, I guess: (1) Is this a font-related issue? (2) Is this even possible with a single Unicode character? (3) If no to the above two questions, would it be worthwhile to suggest adding a small block of "pre-combined" characters, as in the FB00 block?

Thank you for your help! I'll do some work and come back with probably more questions.


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 Post subject: Re: Yiddish quotation mark and accent mark
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:53 am 
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1) Yes, it is completely up to font designers to facilitate proper accent shaping and positioning for a given use. A Yiddish font needs to accommodate the use of the combining acute accent with Hebrew letters. 2) Many characters have different forms and positioning depending on context, (my Unicode project has some characters with 64 contextual forms) and there are many standard font technologies for doing so. 3) This absolutely cannot be done.


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 Post subject: Re: Yiddish quotation mark and accent mark
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:02 pm 
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I have updated my proposal, and also attempted to fill out the ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 2/WG 2 proposal document. I have questions about:

B 4a - I haven't yet looked through the standard to make sure it's fine.
B 5b - For the font, if it's based one that's under the GNU General Public License v2.0, would that be good enough for the purposes of the proposal? If so, then I've made a font already. So what should I put in this spot?
B 7 - I'm not entirely sure what they're looking for for this.
C 10 - Does this necessitate describing any similarities to U+201E? If so, I've attempted to do so in my revised proposal, ... but I'm not sure whether it's necessary.

So how do the below linked documents look?

Thanks for your help so far!

Updated Proposal: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B2CnAU ... UZkUGxCUDQ
Proposal Form: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B2CnAU ... GxwNmQ4MWc


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 Post subject: Re: Yiddish quotation mark and accent mark
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:23 am 
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B4a. Yeah, that character name is fine. P&P exists to make sure that it is unique within the Unicode namespace, meaning that it's only capital letters and a couple punctuation, but some of the punctuation doesn't count for making a character name unique. You have no problems there.

B5b. You will need to sign it over with the [http://unicode.org/policies/font_license.html the font submission form].

B7. The only issue that might be relevant would be the gc=Ps vs. gc=Po, so you might want to mention that here. Otherwise, punctuation rarely has to deal with any of these sorts of issues - they don't sort, and they don't transliterate.

C10. The comparison with U+201E is exactly what this item is for. Just write about U+201E pairing with the other quotation marks in General Punctuation, while the low gershaym pairs with the regular gershaym.

Ooh, one other thing; the form should be appended to the end of the proposal document, rather than as a stand-alone document.


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 Post subject: Re: Yiddish quotation mark and accent mark
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:21 pm 
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I'll look into the font deal, but am I right in saying that that only has to be ready once the proposal is accepted, and not at the submission phase?

I've updated the proposal (and combined it with the form), and attached it here: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B2CnAU ... DVqN2xabUk

The answers to B7 and C10 are within the proposal, and pointed to by the answers to the form. I hope that's good enough.

Is there anything else you suggest I do? Thank you very much!


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 Post subject: Re: Yiddish quotation mark and accent mark
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:48 pm 
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That's all I can see, but I don't have the technical background to thoroughly critique the proposal. You can try posting to the Unicode mail list, or just send it in and wait for UTC feedback next month.


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 Post subject: Re: Yiddish quotation mark and accent mark
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:52 am 
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JamieConway wrote:
I'll look into the font deal, but am I right in saying that that only has to be ready once the proposal is accepted, and not at the submission phase?


For practical purposes, a font must be available during the later stages of review of a proposal at the very latest. I can understand the reluctance of submitters to provide a font in advance of the initial discussion of a proposal - after all, their proposal may be soundly rejected.

As a former code chart editor, however, I understand the need for the editors to start producing consolidated draft code charts as soon as any character has been accepted for review (however tentatively). So you should be prepared to come across with a font rather promptly, at the first sign that the committees are willing to take your characters on board.


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