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 Post subject: Consolidated feedback, round 1 (last update: 11/01/2011)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:25 pm
Posts: 76
Last update: 11/01/2011.


I have collected the last bits of feedback and reorganized the items a bit to have a logical order. The result has been submitted to the UTC, as document L2/11-423. I placed a copy at http://efele.net/temp/11423-pri207-feeback.html.


The rest of this post is now obsolete, but retained for archival purposes.



=====================
Characters: U+2018 and U+2019
The current vertical orientation in the draft UTR #50: T
The vertical orientation that I recommend: SB

As far as I think, from viewpoints of Japanese typography, the vertical orientation of the single quotation characters U+2018 and U+2019 should be SB, for the reason mentioned below:

JIS X 4051 assigns vertical-specific glyph shapes only to the single quotation marks (U+2018 and U+2019), while no vertical-specific glyphs are given to the double quotation marks (U+201C and 201D). This inconsistency should not be brought into the vertical orientations that the UTR #50 is to define. It is thought that one of the causes for this inconsistency is that JIS X 0213:2000 listed a glyph shape pair that seemed to be usable as the single quotes' vertical glyphs. JLREQ seems to have simply inherited it. However, there are different conventions in what glyphs in what posture should be used for the single quotes composed in the vertical writing mode. For instance, serious editors, book typographers or printing historians often argue that the horizontal Western quotes should correspond to the standard vertical Japanese quotes if used in vertical lines. But if so, such conversion is beyond the scope of the relevant issue to be handled by the UTR #50, and writers and editors should input the Japanese quotation characters directly, instead of using the Western single quotes.

=====================
3030 is currently U and should be T instead. Just like 301C, it rotates/mirrors.

=====================
Currently, the small hiragana and katakana characters are in single class, cl-11, smallKana. The proposal is to create two subclasses, one for hiragana (cl-11.1, smallHiragana) and one for katakana (cl-11.1, smallKatakana), and to change:

- 3041, 3043, 3045, 3047, 3049, 3063, 3083, 3085, 3087, 308E, 3095, 3096 to cl-11.1, smallHiragana

- the other characters currently in cl-11, smallKana, to cl-11.2, smallKatakana.


=====================
In table 3, the comment "mirroring, not just rotation" for 30FC is misleading. The change of shape is rooted in the calligraphy of this character and "mirroring" does not do justice to that. There is a more appropriate description in JLREQ.

With that in mind, the consensus is to simply remove the "comment" column from table 3.


=====================
The normative status of UTR#50 is not clearly defined. The consensus is to add this paragraph at the end of section 1:

--
The properties and algorithms presented in this report are informative. The intent is to provide a reasonable determination of the spacing and orientation of characters in Japanese texts, which can be used in the absence of other information, but can be overridden by the context, such as markup in a document or preferences in a layout application. This determination is based on the most common use of a character, but in no way implies that that character is used only in that way.

For more information on the conformance implications, see TUS, section 3.5, Properties, in particular the definition (D35) of an informative property (http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode ... pdf#G48960).
--


=====================
Section 2: Grapheme Clusters

Replace the second sentence of the second paragraph by:

--
A possible approach is to start with the legacy grapheme clusters or extended grapheme clusters as defined in [UAX29]. The spacing class and orientation for a grapheme cluster as a whole is then determined by taking the spacing class and orientation of the first character in the cluster, with the following exceptions:

- if the cluster contains an enclosing combining mark (general category Me), then the whole cluster has spacing class cl-19.3 symbol, and orientation U.

- if the cluster is made of U+0020 SPACE and some combining mark(s), then the whole cluster has spacing class cl-27, western and orientation S.

- if the cluster is made of U+3000 IDEOGRAPHIC SPACE and some combining mark(s), then the whole cluster has spacing class cl-19.3 symbol, and orientation U.
--

======================
The co-editors of CSS3 Writing Modes and CSS3 Text suggest to change the orientation of Egyptian Hieroglyphs from sideways to vertical.

======================
The co-editors of CSS3 Writing Modes and CSS3 Text suggest to investigate the orientation of Yi characters.

======================
The co-editors of CSS3 Writing Modes and CSS3 Text suggest to change the orientation of arrows and box drawing characters to S. This concerns:


Box drawing characters are any characters in the U+2500–U+259F range.

Arrows are So characters in the U+2190–U+21FF, U+261A–U+261F, U+2794–U+27BE, U+2B00–U+2B11, and U+2B45–U+2B46 ranges; and Sm characters in the U+27F0–297F and U+2B30–U+2B4C ranges.

======================
The co-editors of CSS3 Writing Modes and CSS3 Text comment:

Because of the following reasons:

digits are typeset sideways by default
commonly used variable names (Latin, Greek) are typeset sideways by default
we expect superscripts and subscripts to typeset sideways by default
arrows, which function as relations in math, would also be typeset sideways by default (see separate comment)
ASCII math symbols are expected to typeset sideways
mathematical formulae are usually typeset sideways even in vertical text
the most commonly-used symbols that are intermixed with prose (× and +) are symmetric wrt rotation, and the equals sign (=) seems to be typeset sideways even when everything else is upright [4]


we suggest math symbols should be typeset sideways by default.

When intermixed in prose, variable names are often typeset upright, and in such styles math symbols might also be typeset upright. However in these situations some tailoring is necessary for the variable names whatever the mathematical default, so using this style to determine the default rules in plaintext does not make sense.

The default orientation of fullwidth math symbols is less clear, since fullwidth characters typically provide an orientation contrast with their ASCII counterparts; perhaps they should be U (or T for equals).

[5] http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/sc ... FPL028.png

=====================
All the Hangul characters should be changed to be treated as ideographs. More precisely:

- create a new class cl-19.4, hangul

- switch these characters to cl-19.4, hangul:
1100..11FF Hangul Jamo
302E 〮 HANGUL SINGLE DOT TONE MARK
302F 〯 HANGUL DOUBLE DOT TONE MARK
3130..318F Hangul Compatibility Jamo
A960..A97F Hangul Jamo Extended-A
AC00..D7AF Hangul Syllables
D7B0..D7FF Hangul Jamo Extended-B
FFA0 .. FFDF ᅠ .. ￟ HALFWIDTH HANGUL FILLER ..

- switch these characters to cl-19.3, symbols:
3200 .. 321E ㈀ .. ㈞ PARENTHESIZED HANGUL KIYEOK .. PARENTHESIZED KOREAN CHARACTER O HU

- switch all the characters above to orientation U


=====================
The bracket pieces and similar characters should be treated as cl-27 Western and orientation S. The data file should be changed from:

2300 .. 23FF ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U

to

2300 .. 231F ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U
2320 .. 2321 ; cl-27, western ; S
2322 .. 239A ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U
239B .. 23B3 ; cl-27, western ; S
23B4 .. 23B6 ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U
23B7 .. 23B9 ; cl-27, western ; S
23BA .. 23CF ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U
23D0 ; cl-27, western ; S
23D1 .. 23FF ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U

There is not unanimous consensus on this change.

=====================
The superscript and subscript characters should be treated as cl-27 Western and orientation S. The data file should be changed to:

00B2 ; cl-27, western ; S
00B3 ; cl-27, western ; S
00B9 ; cl-27, western ; S
2070 .. 209F ; cl-27, western ; S

=====================
The small kana characters should have orientation T (rather than TK) because the transformation is necessary: they are aligned on their bottom side in horizontal lines, and on their right side in vertical lines. The property value TK can be removed.

=====================
The Yijing Hexagram Symbols (4DC0..4DFF) should be treated as symbols. The data file should be changed to:

4DC0 .. 4DFF ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U

=====================
The Small Form Variants (FE50..FE6F) should be treated like their fullwidth counterparts. The data file should be changed to:

FE50 ; cl-07, comma ; U # SMALL COMMA
FE51 ; cl-07, comma ; U # SMALL IDEOGRAPHIC COMMA
FE52 ; cl-06, fullwidthStop ; U # SMALL FULL STOP
FE53 ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U
# reserved
FE54 ; cl-05, middleDot ; U # SMALL SEMICOLON
FE55 ; cl-05, middleDot ; U # SMALL COLON
FE56 ; cl-04, dividing ; U # SMALL QUESTION MARK
FE57 ; cl-04, dividing ; U # SMALL EXCLAMATION MARK
FE58; cl-03, hyphen ; U # SMALL EM DASH
FE59 ; cl-01.2, openingBracket.round ; SB # SMALL LEFT PARENTHESIS
FE5A ; cl-02.2, closingBracket.round ; SB # SMALL RIGHT PARENTHESIS
FE5B ; cl-01.3, openingBracket.other ; SB # SMALL LEFT CURLY BRACKET
FE5C ; cl-02.3, closingBracket.other ; SB # SMALL RIGHT CURLY BRACKET
FE5D ; cl-01.3, openingBracket.other ; SB # SMALL LEFT TORTOISE SHELL BRACKET
FE5E ; cl-02.3, closingBracket.other ; SB # SMALL RIGHT TORTOISE SHELL BRACKET
FE5F ; cl-12, prefixAbbrev ; U ﹟ SMALL NUMBER SIGN
FE60 ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U # SMALL AMPERSAND
FE61 ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U # SMALL ASTERISK
FE62 ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U # SMALL PLUS SIGN
FE63 ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U # SMALL HYPHEN-MINUS
FE64 ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U # SMALL LESS-THAN SIGN
FE65 ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U # SMALL GREATER-THAN SIGN
FE66 ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U # SMALL EQUALS SIGN
FE67 ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U # reserved
FE68 ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U # SMALL REVERSE SOLIDUS
FE69 ; cl-12, prefixAbbrev ; U # SMALL DOLLAR SIGN
FE6A ; cl-13, postfixAbbrev ; U # SMALL PERCENT SIGN
FE6B ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U # SMALL COMMERCIAL AT
FE6C..FE6F ; cl-19.3, symbol ; U # reserved
---


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