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 Post subject: VERTICAL KANA REPEAT MARK
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:22 am 
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Posts: 71
The following code points:

3031 VERTICAL KANA REPEAT MARK
3032 VERTICAL KANA REPEAT WITH VOICED SOUND MARK

are cl-19.3/U in the current draft.

Our recommendation is cl-15. cl-15 and cl-19 differ in ruby overhang, and these two code points should allow ruby overhang.

Also, although these code points were defined for vertical text flow, for systems that can switch text flows, we'd like to allow font vendors to design horizontal glyphs to put in to default glyph, so we think T is more preferable, but technically speaking that difference won't matter much, so I'm not insisting much on that.

If we're setting them as T, we'd also recommend to set the following code points to T as well:

3033 VERTICAL KANA REPEAT MARK UPPER HALF
3034 VERTICAL KANA REPEAT WITH VOICED SOUND MARK UPPER HALF
3035 VERTICAL KANA REPEAT MARK LOWER HALF


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 Post subject: Re: VERTICAL KANA REPEAT MARK
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:13 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:01 am
Posts: 71
These code points can be treated in the same way as Mongolian, since glyphs in the code chart shows vertical glyphs.

In tradition, these code points were never used in horizontal flow and therefore assumed to be used in vertical flow only, so no one has good idea how to render these code points in horizontal flow. But everyone also would agree that using the glyphs in the code chart in horizontal flow is incorrect. In that sense, I see similarity with Mongolian.

JLREQ authors have come up with the most reasonable glyphs for these code points in horizontal flow. I couldn't find how I can attach image files here, but I can provide one if it helps.

Whether their idea is correct or not is controversial, but given everyone I talked to thinks using the glyph in horizontal flow is incorrect, from UTR#50 point of view, these should be marked as special, just like Mongolian cases.


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 Post subject: Re: VERTICAL KANA REPEAT MARK
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:37 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:25 pm
Posts: 76
kojiishi wrote:
The following code points:

3031 VERTICAL KANA REPEAT MARK
3032 VERTICAL KANA REPEAT WITH VOICED SOUND MARK

are cl-19.3/U in the current draft.

Our recommendation is cl-15. cl-15 and cl-19 differ in ruby overhang, and these two code points should allow ruby overhang.


I don't mind changing them to cl-15.

After that change, would it be the case that allowed ruby overhang could be entirely derived from the EAC property?

Quote:
But everyone also would agree that using the glyphs in the code chart in horizontal flow is incorrect


On that basis, I'd rather not move them to T, as this could be perceived as taking a stance, such as "blessing" their usage in horizontal text. I'd prefer to deal with the situation via the text (just like Mongolian).

Eric.


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 Post subject: Re: VERTICAL KANA REPEAT MARK
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:05 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:01 am
Posts: 71
emuller wrote:
After that change, would it be the case that allowed ruby overhang could be entirely derived from the EAC property?

JLREQ classes are designed to be used in line breaking, spacing, and ruby overhang, so the simple answer is yes, but you need to pay attention to a few caveats:
  • JLREQ is a requirement document and tries to show the concept in a simple way, and therefore it hides some minor details as you know
  • There are some variations for ruby overhang rules. JLREQ classes support simple case, and cases like jukugo-ruby in JLREQ are not covered

emuller wrote:
On that basis, I'd rather not move them to T, as this could be perceived as taking a stance, such as "blessing" their usage in horizontal text. I'd prefer to deal with the situation via the text (just like Mongolian).

That's a possible option, but we probably want to recommend font vendors to implement somewhat usable glyphs in horizontal flow, don't we? I hope you agree that "this text isn't used in horizontal flow" can no longer work today, and therefore I'd like to take these a bit different from Mongolian.
If you want text solution, that's okay, but different text might be needed than Mongolian.


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 Post subject: Re: VERTICAL KANA REPEAT MARK
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:22 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:25 pm
Posts: 76
Given the refocus of UTR#50, I have addressed this issue at the end of section 4:

Quote:
Note that the orientation is described with respect to the appearance in the code charts. A number of scripts, such as Mongolian or Phags-pa, are used primarily in vertical lines, and have not developed a tradition of usage in horizontal lines. Similarly, some characters such as U+3031 VERTICAL KANA REPEAT MARK or the characers of the Vertical Forms block are intended for use primarily in vertical lines. For those scripts and characters, the Unicode code charts show the characters in the orientation and shape they have in vertical lines. It is beyond the scope of this report to describe how those scripts and characters are displayed in horizontal lines (for example, in discursive texts).


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