Re: Fraktur yet again (was: Re: Response to Everson Phoenician and why June 7?)

From: Peter Kirk (
Date: Mon May 24 2004 - 12:07:40 CDT

  • Next message: James Kass: "Re: Response to Everson Phoenician and why June 7?"

    On 24/05/2004 07:47, Curtis Clark wrote:

    > on 2004-05-24 06:37 Dean Snyder wrote:
    >> Diascript is to script as dialect is to language - part of a
    >> continuum of
    >> relatively minor variations.
    > A script is a diascript with an army? (To paraphrase a saying about
    > dialects...)
    And the Phoenicians haven't had an army since Hannibal's elephants were
    defeated. Does that imply that Phoenician is not a separate script? :-)

    On 24/05/2004 08:05, Curtis Clark wrote:

    > I want to start out by saying that, although I personally support
    > encoding Phoenician, I really have no stake in the outcome one way or
    > the other, and I'm only participating in the "thread from Hell" (as I
    > believe James Kass called it) because its dynamics interest me.
    > on 2004-05-24 03:08 Peter Kirk wrote:
    >> If so, please give us some evidence for another side.
    > I have none. I would be astonished if there weren't another side, but
    > far stranger things than that have happened, and I've been wrong before.
    >> But maybe it is something else. For example, if you read evolutionary
    >> biologists strongly defending Darwinian evolution against creationist
    >> theories, does that imply an internal squabble among evoutionary
    >> biologists and therefore that some support creationism? Or does it
    >> rather imply a closing of ranks against outsiders who are attacking
    >> their discipline, a defence against (what they perceive as)
    >> unscientific attacks from those who don't know what they are talking
    >> about?
    > This is a very apt analogy. IMO, it is *precisely* because
    > evolutionary biologists disagree about some fundamental issues in
    > evolutionary biology (such as the relative importance and scope of
    > natural selection) that they "close ranks". As a result, some of the
    > arguments presented against creationism are caricatures. And the "they
    > don't know what they are talking about" rhetoric is common on both sides.
    > As one who has debated creationists, I know that there are other
    > approaches, that work incrementally better in educating people whose
    > minds are not already made up. But the Semiticists who have posted
    > against the proposal on this group seem to be falling into the same
    > closed-rank pattern that I know so well from my own field.
    Well, I see your point, but actually that is not what I see happening.
    One of the three supporters of the Phoenician proposal is a Semitic
    scholar. There has been open debate on the issue on the ANE list, see and
    related postings - unfortunately the thread index doesn't work well.

    I note the following from Peter Daniels on the ANE list at

    >>/ (The comment in the document about unifying Phoenician with
    >/>/ Proto-Sinaitic/ Proto-Canaanite was an error in the document and will
    >/>/ be removed in the revised version.)
    >It was obvious to the subscribers to this list that it was an error, as
    >was clear from the discussion, but that it was circulated as part of an
    >official Unicode proposal cast extremely grave doubts on the Unicode
    Well, of course anyone can make a proposal to Unicode, and so errors in
    proposals do not reflect on "the Unicode operation" or the UTC, only on
    the proposer.

    On 24/05/2004 09:05, Michael Everson wrote:

    > We have statements from real Semiticists who do not want their names
    > dropped into this fray that they support the encoding of Phoenician as
    > a separate and distinct script from Square Hebrew.

    I understand their reluctance. But how many, and how "real"? Are you
    prepared to provide evidence of their support to the UTC?

    Peter Kirk (personal) (work)

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