From: Peter Kirk (email@example.com)
Date: Fri Jul 08 2005 - 19:12:27 CDT
On 08/07/2005 18:17, Gregg Reynolds wrote:
> Well, sure; that goes for anybody who rants. But what about newcomers
> (or oldcomers) who don't rant? I've been repeatedly astonished at the
> sheer rudeness with which honest questions/comments have occasionally
> greeted here. But I guess there's nothing anybody can do about that.
> Lists don't insult people, people insult people.
But there is something which a list moderator can and should do. And
indeed the moderator of this list does so - when the people who are rude
or insulting or who rant are newcomers or outsiders. But unfortunately
there are some people on this list who do these things and seem to get
away with it. Although the rest of us don't know what is said to them
privately, there is at least a perception among some members of this
list that the rules are applied unfairly, to the benefit of insiders and
the detriment of newcomers. If any list is to be successful, it must be
moderated and be seen to be moderated firmly but also fairly.
Ken Whistler wrote:
>You can end up with a pattern of defensive herd behavior by
>the in crowd, who "own" the forum, and identification and
>rejection of "interlopers". If that behavior gets played out
>in public, it results in the "this list isn't friendly"
>appearance for newcomers.
... but made no further comment about this. But this is where this list
is now, or is perceived to be by those who are not the in crowd. But
this is a problem, isn't it? And one that something should be done
about? I have been on this list two years now and I have seen things get
worse rather than better in this respect.
Ken continued by describing those who write "The Unicode Standard is
screwed up because XYZ in my language is handled wrong, and the
developers of the standard are ignorant asses because they don't know my
language as well as I do." But these people very rarely write like that
to start with. Usually they start more like "In my opinion XYZ in my
language is handled wrong, and the developers of the standard don't know
my language as well as I do." And the latter is usually true, especially
when the writers are native speakers of the language - although it is
often also true that they know little about the standardisation process.
But when they write such things they tend to get rude responses along
the lines of "You don't know what you are talking about. How dare you
question our superior knowledge of your language?" It is usually only
then that the writers start to make stronger statements like "The
Unicode Standard is screwed up, and the developers of the standard are
ignorant asses", and no wonder they start to think that. It would really
be so much more helpful if such people could be given, at the start and
without having to beg for it, a helpful explanation of how their point
relates to the standardisation procedure, and if necessary why the
standard will not be changed to meet their requests.
Then Ken continued: "There is really no excuse for true newcomers with
honest questions to be met with rude brushoffs." I agree absolutely. I
hope that in future list members, whoever they may be, who give rude
brushoffs will be reprimanded by the moderator. Firm action of this kind
is required if this list is ever to function well.
Forward this to firstname.lastname@example.org if you think that is where it belongs ;-)
-- Peter Kirk email@example.com (personal) firstname.lastname@example.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 06/07/2005
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