Re: UTF-8 can be used for more than it is given credit

From: Philippe Verdy (
Date: Fri Jun 09 2006 - 20:55:36 CDT

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    Very interesting reading, with new concepts that I was not aware of (the effective link between accents and ypogegrameni).

    Now I am wondering if there is any really valid reason why a combining ypogegrameni should turn to a plain iota letter. I now think that such case is invalid for all locales, except when applying a change of orthography between Ancient Greek and Modern Greek.

    But then, why changing the ypogegrammeni and also keeping the Ancient Greek accents that are no more used in Modern Greek?

    So may be the best solution is to completely remove the rule that turns ypogegrammeni to a simple iota within the simple or full casemappings, and possibly adding special casing cases for the Modern Greek orthographic simplification/reduction.

    From: "Richard Wordingham" <>
    >> By the way, does: Α̽Ι (U+0391, U+033D, U+0399), lowercase to α̽ι
    >> (U+03B1, U+033D, U+03B9)? Or to ᾳ̽ (U+03B1, U+033D, U+0345)?
    > Casing operations are not reversible. U+FB00 LATIN SMALL LIGATURE FF upper
    > cases to <U+0046, U+0046>, which lower cases to <U+0066, U+0066>.
    > By the rules, Α̽Ι lower cases to <U+03B1, U+033D, U+03B9>, which is not
    > unreasonable. But your question raises a real issue. Greek for Hades is
    > ᾍδης
    > <U+0391, U+0314, U+0301, U+0345, U+03B4, U+03B7, U+03C2> or ᾅδης <U+03B1,
    > U+0314, U+0301, U+0345, U+03B4, U+03B7, U+03C2>. This uppercases to ἍΙΔΗΣ
    > <U+0391, U+0314, U+0301, U+0399, U+0394, U+0397, U+03A3>, which in turn
    > lower cases by the rules to ἅιδης <U+03B1, U+0314, U+0301, U+03B9, U+03B4,
    > U+03B7, U+03C2>. Note the special rule to give the correct form of small
    > sigma! However, the placement of the breathing and initial accent is
    > grammatically incorrect! The only possible spellings with the accents
    > before the delta are ᾅδης and αἵδης <U+03B1, U+03B9, U+0314, U+0301,
    > U+03B4, U+03B7, U+03C2>. They represent different pronunciations. (There's
    > a third, attested possibility if you introduce a diaeresis.) Note that
    > αἵδης would uppercase to ΑἽΔΗΣ <U+0391, U+0399, U+0314, U+0301, U+0394,
    > U+0397, U+03A3> - or at least, it does by Unicode rules. I believe it also
    > does in Liddell and Scott, but when a capital vowel follows another vowel,
    > the accents appear to the latter's right in that dictionary. (This
    > rendering behaviour is not mentioned in TUS Section 7.2. It even happens
    > with a diaeresis, as in ἈΪ́Ω <U+0391, U+0313, U+0399, U+0308, U+0301,
    > U+03A9>, in which the diaeresis and acute appear between the iota and the
    > omega.) Would any Grecians care to comment?
    > It looks as though the lowercasing rules ought to be changed! However,
    > there are stability issues, so it may have to be restricted by locale, e.g.
    > limited to all known locales rather than being independent of locale.

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