Re: Unihan : Traditional characters having two simplified equivalents

From: koxinga (
Date: Tue Jan 13 2009 - 18:08:02 CST

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    > Message du 08/01/09 00:01
    > De : "John H. Jenkins" <>
    > A : "Unicode List" <>
    > Copie à :
    > Objet : Re: Unihan : Traditional characters having two simplified equivalents
    > There isn't a detailed explanation anywhere of how this was done, I'm
    > afraid. This data is largely derived from data donated to Unicode by
    > Wenlin, Inc., and they would probably be the best ones to contact to
    > get information on how these specific instances were generated in the
    > first place.
    > Meanwhile, if you have a reliable source that indicates that we have
    > mapping information which is wrong or incomplete, you can report it to
    > us and we'll take the appropriate action.
    > Meanwhile, looking over the instances you cite, it looks like some of
    > these are simply wrong. For example, the mapping between 鯰 and 鲇,
    > does appear to be relying on synonyms and should probably not be
    > included in the Unihan database as an instance of simplification.

    Hello !

    I do think some of these traditional/simplified links are wrong. Right now we have :
    瀋 -> 沈, 渖
    鍾 -> 钟, 锺
    餘 -> 馀, 余
    靦 -> 䩄, 腼
    畫 -> 划, 画
    鯰 -> 鲇, 鲶
    鹼 -> 硷, 碱

    I think we should have :
    瀋 -> 沈
    鍾 -> 钟
    餘 -> 馀, 余
    靦 -> 䩄
    畫 -> 画
    鯰 -> 鲶
    鹼 -> 硷

    I don't know exactly what information you need, so I tried to explain what I found in the dictionaries. I know some chinese but it is not good enough to have a good grip on this kind of characters. It is rather a logic game, where I try to find some coherence between the different references.

    The references I used are :
    * 新华字典 (
    * the scans of the 中华字海 I found on the Internet (
    * The dictionary of variants compiled by the Ministry of Education of the Taiwan Government (
    * The table of simplifications given by简化字总
    * 新世纪汉英大词典 (doesn't give the traditional characters, but is very complete).

    I didn't write all references because I just copied what I had already written. If you want more complete references, just ask.

    ==瀋 -> 沈, 渖==

    The normal simplification is 沈, given by 新华字典 and 中华字海

    It is a "one character" simplification (as opposed to an "implied by rule" simplification) given in the tables of 简化字总表.

    The simplification 審 -> 审 is also given as a rule for other composed characters (嬸 -> 婶) but the "one character" simplification should replace it.

    ==鍾 -> 钟, 锺==

    The same case as the above character. 鍾 -> 锺 is implied by the rules but 鍾 -> 钟 is explicitely stated and is the only form given in the dictionaries I could find.

    ==餘 -> 馀, 余==

    This one is the only one I have seen clearly stated in other places than Unihan. 餘 -> 余 is the normal one, but 馀 may be used when the use of 余 as the simplified form of 餘 creates ambiguities with the already existant character 余.

    ==靦 -> 䩄, 腼==

    䩄 would be the normal simplification of 靦, according to the 見->见 rule simplification. It is the one used in the 新华字典. The 中华字海 gives ( : “䩄:‘靦’的类推简化字”

    The dictionaries also give 腼腆 as a synonym for 腼腆, but there is no simplification 靦->腼 given in the tables.

    ==畫 -> 划, 画==

    The dictionaries and the conversion table give 劃 -> 划, 畫 -> 画.
    劃 is given as a synonym for 画, which was a existing character before the simplification, but I don't see where the simplification 畫 -> 画 comes from.

    ==鯰 -> 鲇, 鲶==

    魚->鱼 is a simplification rule which gave 鯰 -> 鲶 and 鮎 -> 鲇. 鲶 and 鲇 are synonyms but no mention of a special simplification.

    ==鹼 -> 硷, 碱==

    鹼 -> 硷 is a simplification mentioned in the tables. 硷 and 碱 are given as synonyms in the 新华字典. 碱 does not seem to be a simplified form but does not appear on the Kangxi. It is considered as a variant of 鹼 in the I asked a native speaker (my chinese girlfriend), who told me 碱 was more common than 硷.



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