Re: Emoji: Public Review December 2008: e-1DE CHINESE ZODIAC DRAGON

From: Damon Anderson (damon@corigo.com)
Date: Wed Mar 11 2009 - 01:57:11 CST

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    And on a final note, though we think of the Western Dragon (an over grown
    lizard) and an Eastern Dragon (river or water spirit) as being the same,
    they actually aren't.

    -Damon

    On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 08:10:00 +0700, Kenneth Whistler <kenw@sybase.com>
    wrote:

    >
    >> >>> While I do not
    >> >> think that we should encode CHINESE ZODIAC DRAGON and CHINESE ZODIAC
    >> >> RABBIT, the fact is that in encoding DRAGON and RABBIT we are
    >> >> encoding
    >> >> characters which can (and should) be used for those functions.
    >> >
    >> > I disagree again. The character for CHINESE ZODIAC DRAGON
    >> > is U+9F8D.
    >>
    >> No, I think. Emphatically no, indeed. Why? Because the Chinese Zodiac
    >> signs are used outside of China where Chinese characters are
    >> meaningless. A calendar in Kazakhstan or Vietnam for instance might
    >> use the Chinese Zodiac but will very likely not have any Chinese on it.
    >
    > Many countries outside of China proper may indeed be using
    > the Chinese lunar calendar in one way or another. But in
    > such cases, they are making use of the system of 10 Celestial
    > Stems and 12 Terrestrial Branches, which *are* represented
    > by 22 well-known Chinese characters. How that calendrical
    > system is translated into Kazakh or Vietnamese, and what
    > symbols may then be associated with them is a matter for
    > empirical research -- and there may well be additional sets
    > of symbols to encode as a result.
    >
    > But to assert that the emoji pictographs for various animals *are*
    > the Chinese Zodiac signs would just be bizarre.
    >
    > If people want to make use of cutesy animal symbols *from* the
    > emoji set to represent Chinese Zodiac signs in some context
    > where they can't use (or understand) the actual Chinese
    > Terrestrial Branches, then nobody is going to stop them,
    > of course.
    >
    >> > It isn't represented as an emoji of a dragon. Although that doesn't
    >> > stop people, of course, from using pictures of animals to
    >> > represent the Chinese zodiacal signs, any more than it prevents
    >> > Western astrologists from using pictures of mythical figures
    >> > and beasts to represent Western zodiacal signs.
    >>
    >> I don't think it is the same thing. I don't think it is normal or
    >> expected to draw CJK characters as pictographic symbols. That is
    >> different from the long
    >
    > Different from what?
    >
    >>
    >> >> It does not matter what Japanese telecoms are using them for.
    >> >
    >> > Actually, it does.
    >>
    >> Asserting this does not make it so.
    >
    > Well, no more than asserting the opposite makes it so.
    >
    >> >> It must be understood that once any of these characters are
    >> >> encoded, they
    >> >> CEASE to be "emoji" symbols,
    >> >
    >> > No, they don't.
    >>
    >> Oh yes, they do, and I really hope you take this concept on board if
    >> you want success encoding these characters in WG2.
    >
    > Oh no, they don't. lol
    >
    >> Every character in the standard can be used by everyone, regardless of
    >> the origin of the characters. The reason the UTC is requesting these
    >> symbols maybe interoperability with a particular environment, but
    >> EVERY ONE of those characters will simply be a pictographic symbol in
    >> the standard, available for any use, not restricted to cellular
    >> telephony.
    >
    > I didn't say they would be restricted to cellular telephony.
    > Of course they wouldn't be. I said they wouldn't cease to
    > be emoji symbols. Your claim was as absurd as claiming that
    > the Optical Character Recognition symbols at U+2440..U+244A
    > cease to be Optical Character Recognition symbols, once they
    > are encoded in the UCS and become "available for any use."
    >
    >> As such, they must be considered in that wider context.
    >
    > Sure. I have no problem with considering things in a wider context. ;-)
    >
    >> >> and are just plain old Symbols for Use By Anybody who wants to use
    >> >> the Universal Character set.
    >> >
    >> > They may *additionally* be interpreted as plain old symbols for
    >> > arbitrary use by anybody else, to mean whatever they think they
    >> > should mean.
    >>
    >> Oh, come on. Not "whatever they think they should mean". The FIRE
    >> ENGINE is not ambiguous as to its meaning.
    >
    > Of course it is... just like virtually every one of the pictographic
    > symbols. It might represent, for example, the fire truck itself,
    > or the map location of a fire house, or the concept of firefighting,
    > or be extended semantically to refer to a class of emergency vehicles.
    > You'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't) at how people can
    > manipulate visual symbols to mean different things.
    >
    >> Nor is a RABBIT.
    >
    > Same thing. It is a cute little bunny rabbit? A hare? A symbol
    > of Easter? A symbol of fecundity? A zodiacal sign?
    >
    >> The
    >> Chinese Zodiac makes use of a rabbit
    >
    > Well, no. It's actually the Asian hare, Lepus brachyurus, different
    > from the European hare, Lepus europaeus, and more specifically
    > different from the European rabbit, Oryctolagus cuniculus.
    >
    >> and I really don't think it's a
    >> stretch to expect an encoded RABBIT to be used for that purpose -- or
    >> that it would be better to encode a different rabbit pictogram for the
    >> zodiacal use.
    >
    > Well, on that general point I would be in (guarded) agreement.
    >
    > If somebody wants a nice cuddly set of 12 animal symbols to represent
    > the Chinese Terrestrial Branches with pictographs of their
    > associated animals, then making use of the emoji set of cuddly
    > animal pictographic symbols would be fine with me.
    >
    > In that context, then you would need to understand that:
    >
    > RABBIT --> hare/rabbit, associated with Terrestrial Branch 4
    >
    > MOUSE --> rat/mouse, associated with Terrestrial Branch 1
    >
    > COW --> ox/cow, associated with Terrestrial Branch 2
    >
    > CHICKEN --> rooster/hen/chicken, associated with Terrestrial Branch 10
    >
    > Then you're fine.
    >
    >> > But such use is buyer-beware when picked out of sets encoded for
    >> > other purposes.
    >>
    >> What are you on about?
    >
    > That if you pick and choose some other set of denotations for
    > symbols encoded for a different purpose, you may run into
    > trouble, both in terms of range of supported glyph variation
    > and in terms of other people's interpretations of the symbols.
    > It just comes with the territory.
    >
    >> The SMOKING and NO SMOKING characters are part
    >> of the emoji set. Its use in Japanese telephony is as accidental as
    >> the use of the plain old ordinary SMILEY FACE. It's certainly
    >> conceivable that the NO SMOKING character could well have been encoded
    >> already for other reasons had someone done up a proposal for it.
    >
    > Of course.
    >
    >> > Grabbing a couple of animal emoji out of a big set of such
    >> > (including many that manifestly nothing to do with zodiacal signs,
    >> > such as SNAIL, PENGUIN, OCTOPUS, HAMSTER,
    >> > POODLE, ...), and claiming that in RABBIT and DRAGON "we are
    >> > encoding characters which can (and should) be used for [the Chinese
    >> > zodiacal] functions" strikes me as just such
    >> > a buyer-beware mistake.
    >>
    >> Not at all. I read the emoji animal set as a superset, which contains
    >> within it the animals used in Chinese astrology. I don't think that's
    >> a stretch, and indeed I'm not the only one who noticed.
    >
    > Well, it isn't any big coincidence, since the 12 Terrestrial
    > Branches are, of course, associated with 12 of the most
    > culturally prominent and iconic animals in Chinese culture
    > (including the dragon, of course).
    >
    > I just think its a stretch to claim that they are intended
    > as a denotational subset of the emoji referring specifically to Chinese
    > zodiacal signs.
    >
    > --Ken
    >
    >

    -- 
    Damon Anderson, Business Director
    Mobile: +84 90 834-2421
    Email: damon@corigo.com
    Corigo Vietnam
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