RE: [unicode] Unicode Standard for Oriya Ya-Phala

From: Peter Constable (petercon@microsoft.com)
Date: Sat Mar 06 2010 - 10:12:45 CST

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    I was inviting you to provide some text. :-)

    P.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Vinodh Rajan [mailto:vinodh.vinodh@gmail.com]
    Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 12:43 AM
    To: Peter Constable
    Cc: mpsuzuki@hiroshima-u.ac.jp; indic@unicode.org; unicode@unicode.org
    Subject: Re: [unicode] Unicode Standard for Oriya Ya-Phala

    Thanks for the clarifications.

    //Perhaps you'd like to propose additional text for the block description to make this clarification?)//

    It would be great, if you guys do this so..

    V

    On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
    > As noted, (y)ya occurs with both post-base and sub-base conjoined
    > forms -- usually the post-base form, but at least with DA the sub-base
    > form also occurs. (I don't think it helps to get into whether the two
    > are pronounced the same or different, or what the historical
    > derivations of each are; so, I use "(y)ya" to reflect the ambiguity
    > we're trying to resolve.)
    >
    > As noted, Table 9-16 of TUS 5 shows 0B5F used to display the post-base
    > form. This is consistent with p. 55 of the TDIL document. And as noted
    > the TDIL document shows the subjoined form represented using 0B2F. I
    > take that to be consistent with what is in Unicode, even though it
    > doesn't state that explicitly. (Perhaps you'd like to propose
    > additional text for the block description to make this clarification?)
    >
    > When I was working on the Kalinga font, I checked a number of sources including dictionaries and primers, and I also consulted with various Oriya experts. While it was clear that there was some confusion over the ambiguity, there was a definite consensus that the post-base ya-phalaa should be represented using 0B5F. But it was also necessary to support the sub-joined form as well; the TDIL document reflected the way to do that contrastively with the post-base form: use 0B5F for the post-base form, but 0B2F for the sub-base form.
    >
    >
    >
    > Peter
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: unicode-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:unicode-bounce@unicode.org]
    > On Behalf Of mpsuzuki@hiroshima-u.ac.jp
    > Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 12:20 AM
    > To: Vinodh Rajan
    > Cc: indic@unicode.org; unicode@unicode.org
    > Subject: Re: [unicode] Unicode Standard for Oriya Ya-Phala
    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 00:26:46 +0530
    > Vinodh Rajan <vinodh.vinodh@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>What is the recommended combination to produce the secondary-ya
    >>conjunct in Oriya ?
    >
    >>Is it YA or YYA ?
    >
    >>Unicode Oriya fonts seems to have no standard in this regard.
    >
    >>What does Unicode standard dictate about this ?
    >
    > Your investigation is quite interesting. I think, Unicode standard specification does not answer to your question strictly.
    > Unicode 5.2.0 p.288 Table 9-16, the second consonant is coded by "YYA" (U+0B5F). It seems that some experts recognized it as Unicode recommends to use YYA (U+0B5F):
    >  
    > http://lists.sarovar.org/pipermail/oriya-group/2006-August/000209.html
    >
    > In another document:
    >  http://tdil.mit.gov.in/OriyaScriptDetailsApr02.pdf
    > there is a long list of conjunct consonants from p.54-57.
    >
    > YYA (U+0B5F) is included in Table-2 (p.55), the list of "consonant signs". 4 examples are listed, YYA is always rendered as post-base form. Table-2 has no example for "YA".
    >
    >  KA  (U+0B15) + virama (U+0B4D) + YYA (U+0B5F)
    >  SSA (U+0B37) + virama (U+0B4D) + YYA (U+0B5F)
    >  KHA (U+0B16) + virama (U+0B4D) + YYA (U+0B5F)
    >  GA  (U+0B17) + virama (U+0B4D) + YYA (U+0B5F)
    >
    > So, it looks like using YYA for conjunct consonant is popular.
    >
    > But, YA (U+0B2F) is included in Table-4 (p.57), the list of syllables that subjoined consonant is rendered in base- below form. 1 example (DYA) is listed.
    >
    >  DA  (U+0B26) + virama (U+0B4D) + YA  (U+0B2F)
    >    -> DA + ya-phala (base-below form)
    >
    > Table-4 shows alternate presentation for of DYA, as
    >
    >  ( DA + virama ) + YA (normal form)
    >
    > But it does not list "DA (normal form) + YYA (post-base form)".
    >
    > If all of these rules have same weight, the post-base form should be
    > coded by YYA, and the below-base form should be coded by YA?
    >
    > According to Jeroen Hellingman's note in 12 years ago:
    >  http://ldc.upenn.edu/myl/IndianScriptsUnicode.html
    > it seems that this problem is not Oriya-specific. I have to study more about the history how they are introduced.
    >
    > Regards,
    > mpsuzuki
    >
    >
    >

    --
    http://tamilcc.org/thoorihai/thoorihai.php
    


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