Re: [unicode] Re: Proposal for encoding the 'kaida' writing of the Yaeyama islands

Date: Wed Feb 09 2011 - 20:40:24 CST

  • Next message: Bill Poser: "Re: [unicode] Re: Proposal for encoding the 'kaida' writing of the Yaeyama islands"


    If there is a script which was originated from Old Hanzi
    before Clericalization and developped separately (and
    stabilized to the different shape from modern CJKV ideographs),
    it would be difficult to decide the appropriate plane. But...

    Looking at the Kaida glyphs listed on
    I guess their shapes are difficult to relate with
    modern CJKV ideographs. I guess, the unit of ideograph
    (what should be expressed by one glyph) could be
    influenced by modern(?) CJKV ideographs at that time,
    but the shapes were created from scratch, to remind
    their meanings easily. So mixing Kaida with the scripts
    developed from Hanzi & OldHanzi is not intuitive, I think.

    BTW, the glyphs on wikipedia are only for concrete nuon.
    I'm interested in what kind of glyphs were created for
    verbs and adjectives.
    On Wed, 09 Feb 2011 15:49:18 -0800 wrote:
    >I'm not wondering whether it would be best to encode
    >this script in the Supplementary or Tertiary Ideographic
    >planes U+20000-U+3FFFF. However, if Khitan goes in the SMP,
    >but Warring States scripts go in the TIP, it makes me
    >wonder whether the Ideographic planes are intended
    >solely for those that would be considered part of
    >modern CJKV writing if the characters had survived.
    >Michael, Ken, or Rick, anybody have some guidance?
    >Mark, I honestly feel that since you have already
    >identified the character repertoire and have access
    >to primary materials, it would be pretty easy for you
    >to write this up as a proposal with a bit of guidance
    >from those of us who have done it before.
    >Michael, I think this script deserves a list, and
    >I'd like to join.
    >-Van Anderson
    >From: ll077003 (
    >Hello, fellow Unicode scholars! I've been reading for
    >a while, but this is my first post on this list. 
    >As a PhD candidate in liguistics at the University
    >of Tokyo, I've been working on native writing systems
    >in Okinawa. One of them, I think, is worthy of
    >inclusion in Plane 1 of Unicode, and, if possible,
    >I'd like to share it with you and get some opinions
    >on how to get it included. 
    >Okinawan writing, just about obsolete now, isn't very
    >well known even in Japan. They had used knotted ropes,
    >similar to the "quipu" in Peru, since ancient times,
    >but there are also two systems of writing that are
    >mostly unknown to the world. One, called "suchuma"
    >(probably after Chinese 蘇州碼 or
    >蘇州花碼 "Suzhou numerals",
    >from which the idea may have been transmitted) is made
    >from tally marks on sticks and is mostly limited to
    >counting people and items. 
    >The more recent one, which is what I propose to encode,
    >is called "kaida" writing and was developed during the
    >period of the Satsuma clan's subjugation of Okinawa.
    >In the 19th century, when tax burdens on the islanders
    >(and duplicity from the overseers) increased significantly,
    >the islanders devised a means of record-keeping that
    >incorporated symbols for family names, pictographs for
    >various animals and foodstuffs, numerals for dates and
    >amounts, and various other symbols. 
    >There are about 80 pictographs; numerals from 1-10 plus
    >special symbols for 20, 30, 100, and 1000 (some of these
    >are identical to Japanese kanji, but not all); a series
    >of six symbols for units of volume (which might not need
    >to be encoded as they are all basic shapes: circle, cross,
    >horizontal line, square, triangle, vertical line);
    >and several other measurements. 
    >This script began to fall out of active use when the first
    >Japanese-language schools were instituted in the late 1800s,
    >and then lost more ground in 1903, when the capitation tax
    >was abolished. In the following decades it hung on in the
    >form of private records and postal packages, but has now
    >given way to Japanese entirely, with only a few elderly
    >people born in the 1910s and 1920s remembering its use.
    >(The spoken languages are also undergoing this process,
    >though fortunately there are, in comparison, still many
    >living speakers.) 
    >It seems like this kind of script would belong in Plane 1
    >(Supplementary Multilingual Plane) along with other now-
    >obsolete scripts, and should fit easily in one block
    >(1xx00 - 1xxFF). 
    >I've made a font for it, still somewhat incomplete, and
    >assigned the characters in it to ordinary 8-bit codepoints
    >for now, just to make them easy to type. Also I've saved
    >photographs of what few sample texts have survived on
    >Flickr and Facebook and have collected many references
    >for a bibliography; mostly Japanese authors in the first
    >half of the 20th century. There is a gap between 1915,
    >when a mathematics teacher dispatched to Yonaguni talks
    >about kaida writing as an active script, and the early
    >1940s, when Tadao Kawamura refers to it as something
    >that isn't used regularly anymore. A complete bibliography
    >would also include several papers I've written myself --
    >I'm the only English speaker to work on this script in
    >over a century! 
    >How can I get started with a formal proposal to get this
    >script encoded? Can I start preparing one based on what's
    >in and
    >save it somewhere on the internet, and then ask the rest
    >of you for helpful comments and criticism? 
    >Mark Rosa 
    >PhD Candidate, Linguistics 
    >The University of Tokyo 

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