Accumulated Feedback on PRI #353

This page is a compilation of formal public feedback received so far. See Feedback for further information on this issue, how to discuss it, and how to provide feedback.

Date/Time: Mon Jun 12 18:55:39 CDT 2017
Name: Eduardo Marin Silva
Report Type: Error Report
Opt Subject: Omission on important glyph info in the Additional repertoire document

I am the original author of the proposal to add a RAISED MR SIGN, in the proposal 
I mentioned how the glyph can be circled, and the committee ruled that both forms 
should be unified at 1F16C, however no informative note was added suggesting that 
the glyph could take this shape, which could potentially confuse implementers into 
not using it.

All I ask is for the next note to be added "Can be both isolated letters and a 
circled glyph"

Date/Time: Tue Jun 13 08:34:23 CDT 2017
Name: Eduardo Marin Silva
Report Type: Error Report
Opt Subject: Names of the newly encoded symbols for chess notation

Some symbols were encoded specifically for their use in the notation of chess 
games, however three symbols in my opinion have incorrect names 2BBA INTERLOCKED 
WHITE SQUARES, 2BBB INTERLOCKED WHITE AND BLACK SQUARES and 2BBC INTERLOCKED BLACK 
SQUARES. The word interlocked has a very specific meaning, so one would expect 
from the names that these represent square shaped interlocked rings, but these 
are two dimensional squares that by definition cannot interlock, the black square 
couldn't even be said to be a ring but a prism if we are to take them one 
dimension up, so I propose changing all three instances of the word interlocked 
with the word "OVERLAPPING".

Date/Time: Wed Jun 14 20:44:42 CDT 2017
Name: David Lasher
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #353 — character name typo

There is a minor typo in the name of
1FA08  NEUTRAL CHESS KNIGHT ROTATED FORTYFIVE DEGREES

FORTY-FIVE should be hyphenated to match the other names in the block.

Date/Time: Fri Jun 16 04:47:00 CDT 2017
Name: Otto Stolz
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: L2/17-189 Additional repertoire for ISO/IEC 10646:2017 (5th ed.) Amendment 2.0

In both the chart and the character list for Nandinagari, on p. 9–10, the glyphs 
for U+11BA2–U+11BA5, U+11BA8, U+11BA9, and U+11BAB–U+11BAD are improperly placed 
(too far to the left).

Date/Time: Sat Jun 17 23:20:49 CDT 2017
Name: Garth Wallace
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: Typo in Chess Symbols block in PDAM Amendment 2

The informative aliases for the WHITE, BLACK, and NEUTRAL TURNED KNIGHT should 
be "nightrider", not "knightrider".

Date/Time: Sun Jun 18 13:59:46 CDT 2017
Name: Charlotte Buff
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #353: Typo in Vedic Extensions chart

The informative note for U+1CFA VEDIC SIGN DOUBLE ANUSVARA ANTARGOMUKHA 
(Vedic Extensions) reads:

	»used as as a base for a combining nasal sign«

The second ‘as’ needs to be removed.

Date/Time: Sun Jul 9 09:02:09 CDT 2017
Name: Charlotte Buff
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #353: Latin Letters with Spiritus Lenis

It is unclear why the six Latin letters with spiritus lenis in Latin
Extended-D are proposed as atomic characters without decomposition mappings.

The author of L2/17-076R2 (‘Revised proposal for the encoding of an
Egyptological YOD and Ugaritic characters’) states that the rationale for this
implementation choice is provided in N3487 (Everson, ‘Proposal to encode
Egyptological Yod and similar characters in the UCS’). Said document mentions
the following reason for this decision:

	»Advantage: Avoids problems of font suppliers missing these letters.«

This does not constitute a valid reason in my eyes because any general purpose
font is unlikely to support these characters because of their very specialized
application anyway, regardless of how they are implemented in the end.

Both proposals in question claim that neither COMBINING COMMA ABOVE (A̓a̓ I̓i̓
U̓u̓), nor COMBINING RIGHT HALF RING ABOVE (A͗a͗ I͗i͗ U͗u͗), nor COMBINING
CYRILLIC PSILI PNEUMATA (A҆a҆ I҆i҆ U҆u҆) are suitable for representing the
spiritus lenis, while simultaneously admitting that the psili pneumata is
virtually identical to the spiritus lenis and that both could very easily be
confused with one another because of that. Unicode does not encode identically
looking diacritics just because they have different names or different usages
in different contexts, so if the psili pneumata looks just like the spiritus
lenis it should also be used as such. If psili pneumata and spiritus lenis
truly are separate entities that need to be differentiated at the encoding
level, then we get to the circumstance that Unicode also does not encode
precomposed letters just because they are easier for font manufacturers to
handle than combining character sequences. The six proposed characters are
unambiguously just regular Latin letters with diacritics applied. The fact
that the spiritus lenis sits slightly to the left on capital letters should
also not be a reason for treating these letters as indivisible glyphs; there
is precedent for “above” combining marks not being rendered directly on top of
the base character, for example with polytonic Greek. Unlike certain overlaid
diacritics that are presently not recommended for creating combining character
sequences, the placement of the spiritus lenis is always predictable from just
the sequence of codepoints.

Encoding the six letters as atomic characters strikes me as the worst possible
solution because it creates a system wherein it becomes possible to create two
pretty much identically looking strings containing characters from just a
single script that are nonetheless not canonically equivalent, even if all
combining marks were to be removed. If COMBINING CYRILLIC PSILI PNEUMATA
really is not suitable as a spiritus lenis because its placement on capital
letters is inconsistent, then a new COMBINING SPIRITUS LENIS should be
encoded. If this is just a problem caused by faulty fonts and a lack of
consent within the user community then this is not something that can or
should be solved by additions to the UCS. Creating another “official” option
for representing these letters after the previous “official” option was not
properly implemented by users won’t magically solve all inconsistencies. If
anything, they will only become worse because of this.

Date/Time: Fri Jul 14 17:15:47 CDT 2017
Name: Daniel Werning
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #353: LATIN LETTER I WITH SPIRITUS LENIS for Egyptological Yod

In a nutshell: Neither the name, nor the exact shape of the proposed „LATIN I
WITH SPIRITUS LENIS“ is suitable for the transcription symbol “Egyptological
Yod” for contemporary Egyptology.

Preliminary remark: Egyptology is in desperate need for a proper Unicode sign
for Egyptological Yod. There are currently at least five workarounds in
Unicode (U+0069&0313, U+0069&0357, U+0049&0357, U+1EC9, U+0049&0486), but
barley any two Egyptological projects use the same encoding, (which will, of
course, cause unwanted problems).

Comment to his proposal (PRI #353; L2/17-076): The poposed I WITH SPIRITUS
LENIS is meant to be used for Egyptological Yod. However, the Egyptological
Yod consists of an “i” with the upper part of the EGYPTOLOGICAL ALEF (U+A723)
“ꜣ” instead of the dot (this is today interpreted as a hint on that the
respective Egyptological symbol represents either a syllabic i (/i̯/) or a
glottal stop/Semitic “Alef” (/ʔ/), depending on different scholarly opinions).
As to the name: The upper part of the Egyptological Yod is to refer to an
Alef, a full consonant ((/ʀ/ > /ʔ/), not to a “spiritus (lenis)”. As to the
shape: The (upper part of) the EGYPTOLOGICAL ALEF and of the EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD
is subtle but clearly distinguished, also in traditional print, from the Greek
“spiritus lenis” (e.g., the still authoritative A.H. Gardiner, Egyptian
Grammar, 1957, p. 554; see http://www.gwdg.de/~dwernin/temp/EgyptologicalYod.pdf ).
Admittedly the shape is very similar at least in the proposal. However, there
is the danger that font designers will not take the upper part of the
EGYPTOLOGICAL ALEF as a model for the shape, but the Greek spititus lenis.
However, especially due to the (misleading) greco-centric name, it is to be
expected that contemporary Egyptology would NOT agree on using the I WITH
SPIRITUS LENIS as just another imperfect workaround for a proper Egyptological
Yod (for which the community will certainly try to file another proposal
soon).

Date/Time: Tue Jul 25 02:35:33 CDT 2017
Name: Stéphane Polis
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #353: LATIN LETTER I WITH SPIRITUS LENIS for Egyptological Yod

I strongly support Daniel Werning's remarks regarding the "Latin letter with
spiritus lenis for Egyptological Yod". While the egyptological community is in
desperate need of an encoding solution for the Egyptological yod, the name
(spiritus lenis) and the shape (no reference is made to the upper part of the
Egyptological Aleph: U+A723) of the proposal are problematic. As such, it
might lead to the creation of another approximate workaround instead of a
final solution to this longstanding issue.

Date/Time: Tue Jul 25 03:29:49 CDT 2017
Name: Marwan Kilani
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #353: LATIN LETTER I WITH SPIRITUS LENIS for Egyptological Yod

I agree with Daniel Werning and Stéphane Polis about the LATIN LETTER I WITH
SPIRITUS LENIS for Egyptological Yod. I think that the definition “spiritus
lenis” is both inaccurate (as neither Egyptologists nor scholars working with
Ugaritic transcriptions - the two main communities supporting these characters
- use such definition to describe the intended character) and confusing within
the unicode system (as it suggests some unjustified conceptual link with the
Greek orthography - from which the definition “spiritus lenis” comes from).

I also agree that the shape is not accurate: as Daniel Werning pointed out,
what is expected is a combination of LATIN LETER I with the upper part of
Egyptological aliph, which is indeed different from a standard spiritus lenis.
The fact that in some fonts the two diacritics may end up looking similar
should not make forget than in other, more accurate fonts they will indeed
look different, because in fact they are different and represent different
concepts.

Finally, I also agree that an inaccurate labelling, and secondarily an
imprecise shape, will likely be perceived as an additional workaround for a
proper Egyptological Yod. As a result, it is likely that the community will
not adopt this character systematically to transcribe the Egyptological Yod.
This will likely frustrate the very same reason why this character has been
suggested (namely, creating a standard character that can be recognised and
used systematically) and will likely result in the community filing new
proposal to encode an Egyptological Yod in order to fill what will still be
perceived as a gap in the unicode set.

Date/Time: Tue Jul 25 15:07:43 CDT 2017
Name: Marcel Schneider
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #353: 1F16C RAISED MR SIGN


1F16C RAISED MR SIGN adds to the already existing 1F16A RAISED MC SIGN and 
1F16B RAISED MD SIGN under the same subheading, that is erroneous:
“Raised squared Latin sequences” ought to be changed to _Raised Latin sequences_, 
because unlike most of the characters in this block, theyʼre neither squared 
not otherwise enclosed, nor are they square.

Moreover, if blockheads werenʼt subject to stability, “Enclosed Alphanumeric 
Supplement” should be changed to _Preformatted Alphanumeric Supplement_.

Date/Time: Tue Jul 25 15:44:49 CDT 2017
Name: Marcel Schneider
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #353: Rotated Fairy Chess Symbols *1FA06 sqq.

The rotation of the fairy chess symbols is expressed clockwise, and the number
of degrees is plainly spelled out.

The proposal doesnʼt provide a rationale of why the rotation is not expressed
counterclockwise, as usual if not otherwise specified.

It is not obvious why the number of degrees is not written with digits in the
character names, since digits are allowed. Plainly spelling out the angle
measures makes the names clumsy.

Rotations by one-eighth turn are easily measured and expressed in centesimal
degrees with multiples of 50.

More straightforward and yet often used in the Standard is expressing
rotations or—more precisely—orientations with cardinal points.

As an example, the name of 1FA45 WHITE CHESS KNIGHT ROTATED THREE HUNDRED
FIFTEEN DEGREES could become either of the following:

• with digits: WHITE CHESS KNIGHT ROTATED 315-DEGREES
• counterclockwise (standard direction): WHITE CHESS KNIGHT ROTATED 45-DEGREES
• in centesimal degrees: WHITE CHESS KNIGHT ROTATED 350-GRADES
• with cardinal points: WHITE CHESS KNIGHT NORTH-WEST.

Date/Time: Tue Jul 25 17:55:25 CDT 2017
Name: Marcel Schneider
Report Type: Public Review Issue
Opt Subject: PRI #353: Rotated Fairy Chess Symbols *1FA06..1FA47

Due to the spelling-out of the angle measures, the names 
of the rotated fairy chess symbols are lengthy, and they 
are ambiguous by not specifying that angles are measured 
clockwise, not counterclockwise as usual. 

Given that the pictographs are rotated by eighth-turn 
steps, the orientation can be expressed by cardinal 
points, like in many other instances (arrows and so on). 

Proposed name and subheading changes:

Chess symbols oriented north-east
1FA06 WHITE CHESS KNIGHT NORTH-EAST
1FA07 BLACK CHESS KNIGHT NORTH-EAST
1FA08 NEUTRAL CHESS KNIGHT NORTH-EAST
Chess symbols oriented east
1FA09 WHITE CHESS KING EAST
1FA0A WHITE CHESS QUEEN EAST
1FA0B WHITE CHESS ROOK EAST
1FA0C WHITE CHESS BISHOP EAST
1FA0D WHITE CHESS KNIGHT EAST
1FA0E WHITE CHESS PAWN EAST
1FA0F BLACK CHESS KING EAST
1FA10 BLACK CHESS QUEEN EAST
1FA11 BLACK CHESS ROOK EAST
1FA12 BLACK CHESS BISHOP EAST
1FA13 BLACK CHESS KNIGHT EAST
1FA14 BLACK CHESS PAWN EAST
1FA15 NEUTRAL CHESS KING EAST
1FA16 NEUTRAL CHESS QUEEN EAST
1FA17 NEUTRAL CHESS ROOK EAST
1FA18 NEUTRAL CHESS BISHOP EAST
1FA19 NEUTRAL CHESS KNIGHT EAST
1FA1A NEUTRAL CHESS PAWN EAST
Chess symbols oriented south-east
1FA1B WHITE CHESS KNIGHT SOUTH-EAST
1FA1C BLACK CHESS KNIGHT SOUTH-EAST
1FA1D NEUTRAL CHESS KNIGHT SOUTH-EAST
Turned chess symbols
1FA1E WHITE CHESS TURNED KING
1FA1F WHITE CHESS TURNED QUEEN
= white grasshopper
1FA20 WHITE CHESS TURNED ROOK
1FA21 WHITE CHESS TURNED BISHOP
1FA22 WHITE CHESS TURNED KNIGHT
= white nightrider
# correction of “knightrider” to _nightrider_ following 
# feedback from proposal coauthor Garth Wallace.
1FA23 WHITE CHESS TURNED PAWN
1FA24 BLACK CHESS TURNED KING
1FA25 BLACK CHESS TURNED QUEEN
= black grasshopper
1FA26 BLACK CHESS TURNED ROOK
1FA27 BLACK CHESS TURNED BISHOP
1FA28 BLACK CHESS TURNED KNIGHT
= black nightrider
1FA29 BLACK CHESS TURNED PAWN
1FA2A NEUTRAL CHESS TURNED KING
1FA2B NEUTRAL CHESS TURNED QUEEN
= neutral grasshopper
1FA2C NEUTRAL CHESS TURNED ROOK
1FA2D NEUTRAL CHESS TURNED BISHOP
1FA2E NEUTRAL CHESS TURNED KNIGHT
= neutral nightrider
1FA2F NEUTRAL CHESS TURNED PAWN
Chess symbols oriented south-west
1FA30 WHITE CHESS KNIGHT SOUTH-WEST
1FA31 BLACK CHESS KNIGHT SOUTH-WEST
1FA32 NEUTRAL CHESS KNIGHT SOUTH-WEST
Chess symbols oriented west
1FA33 WHITE CHESS KING WEST
1FA34 WHITE CHESS QUEEN WEST
1FA35 WHITE CHESS ROOK WEST
1FA36 WHITE CHESS BISHOP WEST
1FA37 WHITE CHESS KNIGHT WEST
1FA38 WHITE CHESS PAWN WEST
1FA39 BLACK CHESS KING WEST
1FA3A BLACK CHESS QUEEN WEST
1FA3B BLACK CHESS ROOK WEST
1FA3C BLACK CHESS BISHOP WEST
1FA3D BLACK CHESS KNIGHT WEST
1FA3E BLACK CHESS PAWN WEST
1FA3F NEUTRAL CHESS KING WEST
1FA40 NEUTRAL CHESS QUEEN WEST
1FA41 NEUTRAL CHESS ROOK WEST
1FA42 NEUTRAL CHESS BISHOP WEST
1FA43 NEUTRAL CHESS KNIGHT WEST
1FA44 NEUTRAL CHESS PAWN WEST
Chess symbols oriented north-west
1FA45 WHITE CHESS KNIGHT NORTH-WEST
1FA46 BLACK CHESS KNIGHT NORTH-WEST
1FA47 NEUTRAL CHESS KNIGHT NORTH-WEST
[…]
Sideways chess equihoppers
1FA4B WHITE CHESS SIDEWAYS EQUIHOPPER
1FA4C BLACK CHESS SIDEWAYS EQUIHOPPER
1FA4D NEUTRAL CHESS SIDEWAYS EQUIHOPPER

# As of the equihopper, as it is symmetric, it can be 
# unambiguously referred to as sideways when rotated 90°.

Date/Time: Mon Jul 31 13:05:32 CDT 2017
Name: Marcel Schneider
Report Type: Other Question, Problem, or Feedback
Opt Subject: *11BD2 NANDINAGARI SIGN SIDDHAM

Hello,

Iʼve just got aware that the Auspicious sign subheading in the new 
Nandinagari block is not as good as I thought it to be when 
reviewing for PRI #353. Unfortunately this is now closed, but Iʼll 
send you this anyway off PRI (leaving it to your convenience 
whether to add the below, or not). I think that this item could be 
processed as well at beta review, where it could be sent again.

The reason why this seems important to me, is to make aware that 
the proposers didnʼt aim at doing differently, but can be meant 
as being aware of the existing usage in the Standard, and seeking 
consistency as far as feasible. Exhibiting some ability of being 
original does not make sense to me. 

Best regards,
Marcel
________________________________________________________________

Iʼve just got aware that the Auspicious sign subheading for 
11BD2 NANDINAGARI SIGN SIDDHAM could as well be Invocation sign.
As the encoding proposal states: “The sign [SIDDHAM] is used as an 
invocation at the beginning of documents.” 
For consistency with other instances in the Standard such as 
U+A8FC, one could actually wish to replace “Auspicious sign” with 
“Invocation sign” in the future Nandinagari block.