From dwayne@translate.org.za Wed May 2 06:21:01 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Wed, 02 May 2007 06:21:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from etna.obsidianonline.net (etna.obsidian.co.za [196.36.119.67]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l42CKwrv002860 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 06:21:00 -0600 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by etna.obsidianonline.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41564588011 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 14:20:51 +0200 (SAST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at obsidianonline.net Received: from etna.obsidianonline.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (etna.obsidianonline.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QewyCsEBnJwy for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 14:20:43 +0200 (SAST) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (dsl-242-198-63.telkomadsl.co.za [41.242.198.63]) by etna.obsidianonline.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E533D587F80 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 14:20:42 +0200 (SAST) Subject: RE: Subset views of the CLDR data From: Dwayne Bailey To: cldr-users@unicode.org In-Reply-To: <010d01c78267$76b6c3c0$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> References: <1176971524.15892.32.camel@dhcppc2> <010d01c78267$76b6c3c0$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Organization: Translate.org.za Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 14:17:48 +0200 Message-Id: <1178108269.27548.40.camel@dhcppc2> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.3 (2.8.3-2.fc6) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-archive-position: 104 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: dwayne@translate.org.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users On Thu, 2007-04-19 at 11:45 +0200, Philippe Verdy wrote: > Look at the "Coverage" options, in your CLDR user preferences. > > The immediate need is for the "Default" coverage which is for modern > language names, modern country names, modern currency units... and other > entries that should be part of the future release in all locales. > > The "Comprehensive" coverage option is for the complete set. Sorry for the long delay in responding. Yes I'm aware of those options, although they don't seem to reduce the volume :) > You have also specific coverage options for some software environments... Do these actually work? From my view they do not and don't reduce the data set at all. In the past if I tried to switch to openoffice.org it would always switch back to default. Now that seems fixed. However, when in openoffice.org mode there seems to be no difference from the normal view. Either I am seeing data that I haven't submitted in an OpenOffice.org locale or this feature is not filtering. > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org] > > De la part de Dwayne Bailey > > Envoyé : jeudi 19 avril 2007 10:32 > > À : cldr-users@unicode.org > > Objet : Subset views of the CLDR data > > > > Hi All, > > > > I've just subscribed so forgive me if this has been asked/addressed > > before. > > > > I'm interested in seeing subset views of the CLDR data for my languages. > > I see in the web interface this seems to exists as you can select a few > > e.g. OpenOffice.org but this doesn't seem to work correctly. > > > > Why this is important for me is that I'd rather put effort first into > > the validation of data that is currently used by applications and OS > > platforms. The other data is useful in the long term but not our > > immediate. > > > > Is this feature on hold or working and I just need to work out how to > > make it work? > > > > > -- Dwayne Bailey Translate.org.za +27-12-460-1095 (w) +27-83-443-7114 (cell) From srl@icu-project.org Wed May 2 09:44:42 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Wed, 02 May 2007 09:44:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from v.icu-project.org (v.icu-project.org [161.58.210.87]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l42FiguE014133 for ; Wed, 2 May 2007 09:44:42 -0600 Received: from [38.99.84.37] (helo=[172.17.98.227]) by v.icu-project.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1HjH0Q-000Eb8-30 for cldr-users@unicode.org; Wed, 02 May 2007 15:44:38 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <1178108269.27548.40.camel@dhcppc2> References: <1176971524.15892.32.camel@dhcppc2> <010d01c78267$76b6c3c0$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> <1178108269.27548.40.camel@dhcppc2> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-9-97336314 Message-Id: From: "Steven R. Loomis" Subject: Re: Subset views of the CLDR data Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 08:41:55 -0700 To: cldr-users@unicode.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-archive-position: 105 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: srl@icu-project.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users --Apple-Mail-9-97336314 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed It doesn't filter the data, what it does is affect which items it complains about being untranslated. -s On 02 Mej 2007, at 05:17, Dwayne Bailey wrote: > On Thu, 2007-04-19 at 11:45 +0200, Philippe Verdy wrote: >> Look at the "Coverage" options, in your CLDR user preferences. >> >> The immediate need is for the "Default" coverage which is for modern >> language names, modern country names, modern currency units... and >> other >> entries that should be part of the future release in all locales. >> >> The "Comprehensive" coverage option is for the complete set. > > Sorry for the long delay in responding. Yes I'm aware of those > options, > although they don't seem to reduce the volume :) > >> You have also specific coverage options for some software >> environments... > > Do these actually work? From my view they do not and don't reduce the > data set at all. In the past if I tried to switch to > openoffice.org it > would always switch back to default. Now that seems fixed. However, > when in openoffice.org mode there seems to be no difference from the > normal view. Either I am seeing data that I haven't submitted in an > OpenOffice.org locale or this feature is not filtering. --Apple-Mail-9-97336314 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 It doesn't filter the data, what = it does is affect which items it complains about being = untranslated.

-s

On 02 Mej 2007, at 05:17, Dwayne Bailey wrote:

On Thu, 2007-04-19 at 11:45 = +0200, Philippe Verdy wrote:

Look at the "Coverage" = options, in your CLDR user preferences.


The = immediate need is for the "Default" coverage which is for = modern

language = names, modern country names, modern currency units... and = other

entries = that should be part of the future release in all locales.


The "Comprehensive" coverage option is for the complete = set.


Sorry for the long delay in = responding.=A0 Yes I'm = aware of those options,

although they don't seem to reduce the volume :)

=


You have also specific coverage options = for some software environments...


Do these actually work?=A0= =46rom my view they do not and don't reduce the

data set at all.=A0 In the past if I tried to = switch to openoffice.org it

would always switch back to default.=A0 Now that seems fixed.=A0 However,

when in openoffice.org mode = there seems to be no difference from the

normal view.=A0 Either I am seeing data that = I haven't submitted in an

OpenOffice.org locale or this feature is not = filtering.


= --Apple-Mail-9-97336314-- From srl@icu-project.org Fri May 4 17:45:28 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Fri, 04 May 2007 17:45:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from v.icu-project.org (v.icu-project.org [161.58.210.87]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l44NjS99007604 for ; Fri, 4 May 2007 17:45:28 -0600 Received: from ns.softanswer.com ([69.19.197.98] helo=[192.168.1.49]) by v.icu-project.org with esmtpa (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Hk7Sp-000KaQ-UX for cldr-users@unicode.org; Fri, 04 May 2007 23:45:28 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Message-Id: <27F467CD-D541-414B-A3BC-166A8C4F17C6@icu-project.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: cldr-users@unicode.org From: "Steven R. Loomis" Subject: ST speedup Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 16:45:14 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id l44NjS99007604 X-archive-position: 106 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: srl@icu-project.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users the survey tool has been having some performance problems related to some code changes it should be sped up again, for the moment. -s From rick@unicode.org Wed May 9 17:59:34 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Wed, 09 May 2007 18:01:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from izanami (c-67-188-204-169.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.188.204.169]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with SMTP id l49MxPU0014185; Wed, 9 May 2007 17:59:26 -0500 Message-Id: <200705092259.l49MxPU0014185@unicode.org> To: unicode@unicode.org Subject: Unicode Glossary Updated In-Reply-To: <925712992.20070510003537@acssoft.de> Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 15:59:25 -0700 From: Rick McGowan received: by Apple.Mailer (2.95.2) X-archive-position: 107 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: rick@unicode.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users The Unicode Consortium editorial committee is proud to announce the availability of the newly updated online glossary. The updated glossary is based on the glossary in the Consortium's recently published book, The Unicode Standard, Version 5.0 and includes many new, updated and expanded entries. The online version offers readers easy accessibility with alphabetical links and links within the entries. The online glossary can be found at: http://www.unicode.org/glossary/ The Unicode Standard, Version 5.0 can be ordered online. Please see: http://www.unicode.org/book/aboutbook.html Regards, Rick McGowan Unicode, Inc. From richard.wordingham@ntlworld.com Sun May 13 21:11:13 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Sun, 13 May 2007 21:11:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.49]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4E2BCeY002676 for ; Sun, 13 May 2007 21:11:12 -0500 Received: from aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20070514021105.WCSI16175.mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com> for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 03:11:05 +0100 Received: from JRWXP1 ([82.18.16.213]) by aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with SMTP id <20070514021105.FZJQ26699.aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@JRWXP1> for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 03:11:05 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01c795cd$1e8a4180$d5101252@JRWXP1> From: "Richard Wordingham" To: Subject: Transliteration of Thai Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 03:10:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-archive-position: 108 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: richard.wordingham@ntlworld.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users The current Thai-Latin transformation is basically the ICU implementation of ISO 11940:1998. I am going to propose that the acknowledged deviations from that standard be reduced to legacy support. I intend to propose the changes through the survey tool if I get an account early enough today (19.00 GMT Monday 14 May is my planned start time) and via a bug report otherwise. (Today is not a good day to hope for prompt account creation, as there is a UTC meeting.) Does anyone have convincing test cases to show that am I wrong to propose going back to the ISO 11940 encodings for TO PATAK and PHINTHU? I believe the alleged ambiguity of the transliteration of TO PATAK can be removed by back-transliterating to THO THONG (sic) the same way as back-transliteration to THO TAHAN is done. I have a test case showing back-transliteration failing before the change and working afterwards. (The difficult combinations were and .) The current encoding of ThaiLogical-Latin already seems to handle encoding the transliteration of PHINTHU to U+0325 COMBINING RING BELOW as ISO 11940:1198 appears to prescribe. There is, of course, the issue of font adequacy - either transliteration in accordance with ISO 11940:1998 requires diacritic stacking abilities, or the back-transliteration needs significant liberalisation in what it will accept. Finally, though this may have to be addressed later, I note from the abstract of ISO-11940:1198 that interchanging preposed vowels and the following consonant is only an option, and not the recommended one. (The Institute of the Estonian Language documents and claims to have used the version without transposition.) Transposition does produce a few sillies, such as เพลินจิต, which is transcribed as 'Phloen Chit' under the Royal Thai General System and transliterated as 'Blœn Cita' in the Graphic System, popping up as 'phelin cit'. At least one who can read Thai can guess what is happening with 'ephlin cit', whereas 'phelin' will look like an error. Richard. From verdy_p@wanadoo.fr Mon May 14 01:41:12 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Mon, 14 May 2007 01:41:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp21.orange.fr (smtp21.orange.fr [80.12.242.47]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4E6fCFm032605 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 01:41:12 -0500 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf2111.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 2C14D1C0009C for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 08:41:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from HARNON (APoitiers-156-1-24-100.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.47.100]) by mwinf2111.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E71B01C000AD for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 08:41:06 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20070514064106946.E71B01C000AD@mwinf2111.orange.fr From: "Philippe Verdy" To: References: <000d01c795cd$1e8a4180$d5101252@JRWXP1> Subject: RE: Transliteration of Thai Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 08:41:02 +0200 Organization: Ordinateur Personnel Message-ID: <00e501c795f2$d759cf80$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <000d01c795cd$1e8a4180$d5101252@JRWXP1> Thread-Index: AceVzoT4pVstIN7cTF+2vKjxHG2LcAAIor6A X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-archive-position: 109 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: verdy_p@wanadoo.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users Richard Wordingham wrote: > The current Thai-Latin transformation is basically the ICU implementation > of ISO 11940:1998. I am going to propose that the acknowledged deviations > from that standard be reduced to legacy support. I intend to propose the > changes through the survey tool if I get an account early enough today > (19.00 GMT Monday 14 May is my planned start time) and via a bug report > otherwise. (Today is not a good day to hope for prompt account creation, > as there is a UTC meeting.) Note that the survey tool will be closed very soon, on May 15, and new proposals will then be impossible for several months. The tool will only accept votes for solving conflicts. Is it the CLDR right place to start such workshop? Is the Unicode bug report form the right place to make a proposal? I think that proposals may be made from any place, and then discussed here. Note that the CLDR is not there to make new proposals, it's just there to register the current existing practices, and selecting between various options, which one is the most common use for the most general usage (so supporting "legacy" standards is probably not the right path to go: if a standard exists, it must be accessible as is under its name; any "deviation" is a variant not to be confused, and possible bugs should only be signalled as such if they prove to deviate from the documented standard). For example, there are several Latin transliteration schemes for Greek or Japanese just for Cyrillic-written Russian, and each one has its standard definition and a distinctive name or identifier: several of them may be implemented separately in ICU, but including a new scheme must be backed by some relevant sources of authority and an active community. Personnal creations are not part of ICU but can be made by anyone without having to discuss it here or with the ICU project team. The best support for a proposal is a proof of use for interchange... From richard.wordingham@ntlworld.com Mon May 14 03:18:31 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Mon, 14 May 2007 03:18:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.49]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4E8IVUX030056 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 03:18:31 -0500 Received: from aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20070514081824.ZLJR16175.mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com> for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 09:18:24 +0100 Received: from JRWXP1 ([82.18.16.213]) by aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with SMTP id <20070514081824.HULS26699.aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@JRWXP1> for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 09:18:24 +0100 Message-ID: <003301c79600$6e931d90$d5101252@JRWXP1> From: "Richard Wordingham" To: References: <000d01c795cd$1e8a4180$d5101252@JRWXP1> <00e501c795f2$d759cf80$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> Subject: Re: Transliteration of Thai Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:18:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-archive-position: 110 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: richard.wordingham@ntlworld.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users Philippe Verdy wrote on Monday, May 14, 2007 7:41 AM > Richard Wordingham wrote: >> The current Thai-Latin transformation is basically the ICU implementation >> of ISO 11940:1998. I am going to propose that the acknowledged deviations >> from that standard be reduced to legacy support. > I think that proposals may be made from any place, and then discussed > here. > Note that the CLDR is not there to make new proposals, it's just there to > register the current existing practices, and selecting between various > options, which one is the most common use for the most general usage (so > supporting "legacy" standards is probably not the right path to go: if a > standard exists, it must be accessible as is under its name; any > "deviation" > is a variant not to be confused, and possible bugs should only be > signalled > as such if they prove to deviate from the documented standard). To me it makes excellent sense to be able to back-transliterate as many variants as possible. Have you (PV) read ThaiLogical-Latin? It records its deviations from ISO 11940:1998 and indicates reasons. In each case I find the reason given inadequate except for keeping to budget or schedule. ISO 11940:1998 and variants barely counts as existing practice. The only examples of usage that I have actually seen are ICU and the article at the Institute of the Estonian Language, and these are exposition rather than usage. What other examples of use are there? I can find far more examples of the graphic system in use, but current usage is slightly variable and relies on knowledge of where the implicit vowels go. The 'standard' seems to be an article by King Rama VI. Moreover, the graphic system is not completely invertible - it seems not to indicate the presence or absence of THANTHAKHAT, and in modern spelling there are several Thai doublets whose spelling only differs in its presence or absence. There were far more such doublets in the time of Rama VI - a word-final audible vowel *should* now almost always be indicated in the present-day spelling. The most widely used consistent system is the RTGS, but that appears to be excluded from CLDR as it is uninvertible. Also, it depends on knowing where the vowels go, and in some cases even the Thais do not agree, e.g. Phetburi v. Phetchaburi. (*Phetcharaburi gets no support - the RO RUA is completely silent.) Moreover, Thai does have etymologically unrelated homographs with quite different pronunciations. Richard. From dwayne@translate.org.za Mon May 14 07:01:33 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Mon, 14 May 2007 07:01:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from etna.obsidianonline.net (etna.obsidian.co.za [196.36.119.67]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4EC1VQH018041 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 07:01:32 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by etna.obsidianonline.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A99592703 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 14:01:23 +0200 (SAST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at obsidianonline.net Received: from etna.obsidianonline.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (etna.obsidianonline.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oL4-DXq58ixI for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 14:01:14 +0200 (SAST) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (dsl-241-152-14.telkomadsl.co.za [41.241.152.14]) by etna.obsidianonline.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9930358FBEF for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 14:01:14 +0200 (SAST) Subject: symbols/group non-breaking space From: Dwayne Bailey To: cldr-users@unicode.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Translate.org.za Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:58:15 +0200 Message-Id: <1179143895.2552.37.camel@dhcppc2> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.3 (2.8.3-2.fc6) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 111 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: dwayne@translate.org.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users Hi, In South Africa we use the non-breaking space as a group separator for numbers. I pasted the right character (but its difficult to confirm), yet the tools gives an error that the field cannot start or end in whitespace. Any ideas what I should do? -- Dwayne Bailey Translate.org.za +27-12-460-1095 (w) +27-83-443-7114 (cell) From AndreasPrilop2007@trashmail.net Mon May 14 10:52:48 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Mon, 14 May 2007 10:52:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from authsmtp.rrzn.uni-hannover.de (authsmtp.rrzn.uni-hannover.de [130.75.2.107]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4EFqk6f015821 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 10:52:47 -0500 Received: from s5b004 (s5b004.rrzn.uni-hannover.de [130.75.6.34]) by authsmtp.rrzn.uni-hannover.de (8.13.8/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l4EFqdlM011900 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 17:52:40 +0200 Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:52:39 +0200 (MEST) From: Andreas Prilop To: cldr-users@unicode.org Subject: Re: symbols/group non-breaking space In-Reply-To: <1179143895.2552.37.camel@dhcppc2> Message-ID: References: <1179143895.2552.37.camel@dhcppc2> Organization: -- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-PMX-Version: 5.3.0.289146, Antispam-Engine: 2.5.0.283055, Antispam-Data: 2007.5.14.83433 X-archive-position: 112 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: AndreasPrilop2007@trashmail.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users On Mon, 14 May 2007, Dwayne Bailey wrote: > In South Africa we use the non-breaking space as a group separator for > numbers. It's the same in Germany. German standard DIN 1333 http://www.beuth.de/langanzeige/DIN+1333/1819868.html and the German "Duden" (German equivalent to OED) http://www.duden.de/ specify a space (i.e. some kind of white space) as group separator for numbers. This is also the established practice in German typography. As an example, see the latest edition of "Brockhaus Enzyklopdie". http://www.brockhaus.de/enzyklopaedie/ However, the CLDR *wrongly* has a period (.) as group separator in the German language. How to correct this? From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Mon May 14 11:49:29 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Mon, 14 May 2007 11:49:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com (nz-out-0506.google.com [64.233.162.230]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4EGnTjB017750 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 11:49:29 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s18so2355514nze for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 09:49:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=JEXKzoomi1X35XjURsWf0qwB9PvCBoC7hUa5vTF9wW05l9Ls6QLR3Or2sAboRJXuOklvK7QFKOrBS3Zjpru2DHrCkfF49sD47Q/ve1cc5fh6DuT7efBiSe54UHepSo2MAB6kNPn749se5WSMv97V7nC0VeiSYsBg3OVcQVzGc5Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=F6gugRCmFE9aAWTT7sQIPf6zsk6ep4n9czkvF/Ys6tBAL68EEpwep5tvesRaeCVCruchO9abM5yv1hU8N++DzBoCwbnzIKtC19li4vopgDPUF2ieBTM242ZKli9KeE3zqyWY57oyAUvbKVhuUWSf7XIbHpYCK+sA0CWMyNUMV1E= Received: by 10.114.93.17 with SMTP id q17mr1066016wab.1179161365369; Mon, 14 May 2007 09:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Mon, 14 May 2007 09:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20705140949i3b4f2905o94de1407b3ef33fb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:49:25 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: cldr-users@unicode.org Subject: Re: Transliteration of Thai In-Reply-To: <003301c79600$6e931d90$d5101252@JRWXP1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_226359_19686266.1179161365275" References: <000d01c795cd$1e8a4180$d5101252@JRWXP1> <00e501c795f2$d759cf80$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> <003301c79600$6e931d90$d5101252@JRWXP1> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6f8a0e608e804d97 X-archive-position: 113 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: mark.davis@icu-project.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users ------=_Part_226359_19686266.1179161365275 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A few comments. 1. Transliterations are on a somewhat different schedule, since they don't use the survey tool. 2. The same script can have different transliteration methods. CLDR allows for multiple systems, using different variant IDs. 3. The transliterations need to be are supplied in a workable format, and be properly referenced. 4. While we don't currently require test cases, those are very useful. That is, samples of pairs of text that should transliterate to one another. Mark ------=_Part_226359_19686266.1179161365275 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline A few comments.
  1. Transliterations are on a somewhat different schedule, since they don't use the survey tool.
  2. The same script can have different transliteration methods. CLDR allows for multiple systems, using different variant IDs.
  3. The transliterations need to be are supplied in a workable format, and be properly referenced.
  4. While we don't currently require test cases, those are very useful. That is, samples of pairs of text that should transliterate to one another.
Mark
------=_Part_226359_19686266.1179161365275-- From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Mon May 14 11:50:22 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Mon, 14 May 2007 11:50:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com (nz-out-0506.google.com [64.233.162.232]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4EGoLee018202 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 11:50:21 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s18so2355942nze for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 09:50:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=sXsD2mAYMpYc8yPStbcUSg1KuF6SvKjahHzXvUhObTjzBkKke0PbjUHfDdh3RQkv3D+PABcLG7lfMtcOgSli2bEGQjIuvXmViWma1NWIn4AIh+/NE85VJPcCuMppSNqUqJtgXiZmZepI6C2NVm3jQy6M3ebp4/hHeNDfEbDzmpw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=gTujtIhDn7g7xrUtX4lCsbwrhjjr63GdYZFcTFDVBhvkPNZvMJUC1ThVes61ZEaLHHihqiwrrt/awD+rZDPyKQAYi8B9rK/MLLlRBlOVMw1PbhV1S9MlvttfJH140QLp51DOHq9ThJJyVHlJUa8XOOLUEK9fIwGxm8vntmz+m2E= Received: by 10.114.77.1 with SMTP id z1mr1073437waa.1179161417767; Mon, 14 May 2007 09:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Mon, 14 May 2007 09:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20705140950n12209b69ga2bf1af6c36714c8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:50:17 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: cldr-users@unicode.org Subject: Re: Transliteration of Thai In-Reply-To: <30b660a20705140949i3b4f2905o94de1407b3ef33fb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_226379_12829719.1179161417708" References: <000d01c795cd$1e8a4180$d5101252@JRWXP1> <00e501c795f2$d759cf80$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> <003301c79600$6e931d90$d5101252@JRWXP1> <30b660a20705140949i3b4f2905o94de1407b3ef33fb@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 96ad215a4a79b73c X-archive-position: 114 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: mark.davis@icu-project.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users ------=_Part_226379_12829719.1179161417708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline And also, we don't require transliterations to be invertible -- they are then just termed transcriptions. Mark On 5/14/07, Mark Davis wrote: > > A few comments. > > 1. Transliterations are on a somewhat different schedule, since they > don't use the survey tool. > 2. The same script can have different transliteration methods. CLDR > allows for multiple systems, using different variant IDs. > 3. The transliterations need to be are supplied in a workable > format, and be properly referenced. > 4. While we don't currently require test cases, those are very > useful. That is, samples of pairs of text that should transliterate to one > another. > > Mark > -- Mark ------=_Part_226379_12829719.1179161417708 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline And also, we don't require transliterations to be invertible -- they are then just termed transcriptions.

Mark

On 5/14/07, Mark Davis < mark.davis@icu-project.org> wrote:
A few comments.
  1. Transliterations are on a somewhat different schedule, since they don't use the survey tool.
  2. The same script can have different transliteration methods. CLDR allows for multiple systems, using different variant IDs.
  3. The transliterations need to be are supplied in a workable format, and be properly referenced.
  4. While we don't currently require test cases, those are very useful. That is, samples of pairs of text that should transliterate to one another.
Mark



--
Mark ------=_Part_226379_12829719.1179161417708-- From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Mon May 14 12:02:39 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Mon, 14 May 2007 12:02:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com (nz-out-0506.google.com [64.233.162.229]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4EH2d6h025144 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 12:02:39 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s18so2361434nze for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 10:02:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=GKQmTX13F8HVqeuFK7Ci4Fow0CAzw3OSmGoi6dW7Md8hqsZ8VkcFR85nsBNLDjmsU3Zn66BoUZyodhW04GhrO/33qTtDcIAyChdrzt2jS20E1PZSAyCw7we1xbd1EtGBsyGoZvQuS0D6AX2XEkoSu9Dtb4aIpZT1TsiDlDy1qqE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=bPsh6HKEpSAQKwsyEq49sdqQi9a6jBz6L0JAMoI63HCfsq1FEQbi5EQDxOYfWIbI1eZRbMoD6S6ocI6/8ImWEOlsY95//fsb7QsQCDT0W4egjO/Oyb/p0JjfcUQMd0HPfDOqMwPmIObD3sPsGMp20c1oZ6fjWVfPt3YMgQvihVw= Received: by 10.114.102.1 with SMTP id z1mr1058114wab.1179162153022; Mon, 14 May 2007 10:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.196.2 with HTTP; Mon, 14 May 2007 10:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20705141002k44552df1n57854aee2f81f167@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 10:02:32 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: cldr-users@unicode.org Subject: Re: symbols/group non-breaking space In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_226627_2033764.1179162152885" References: <1179143895.2552.37.camel@dhcppc2> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 271bcf4d83f0415d X-archive-position: 115 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: mark.davis@icu-project.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users ------=_Part_226627_2033764.1179162152885 Content-Type: text/plain; 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list cldr-users); Mon, 14 May 2007 13:17:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp1.wsfo.org (smtp1.wsfo.org [208.145.81.51]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4EIH0on002913 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 13:17:04 -0500 Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.link77.net [172.22.0.125]) by smtp1.wsfo.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l4EIGsFv004932 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 14:16:54 -0400 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.54 on 172.22.0.51 X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/Clamd http://raeinternet.com/mpp X-Scanned-By: This message was scanned by MPP Free Edition (www.messagepartners.com)! Received: from [84.13.160.251] (account martin_hosken@sil.org HELO [192.168.0.2]) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.7) with ESMTPSA id 145234555 for cldr-users@unicode.org; Mon, 14 May 2007 14:16:54 -0400 Message-ID: <4648A795.3020203@sil.org> Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 19:16:53 +0100 From: Martin Hosken User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (X11/20070403) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cldr-users@unicode.org Subject: Re: Transliteration of Thai References: <000d01c795cd$1e8a4180$d5101252@JRWXP1> <00e501c795f2$d759cf80$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> <003301c79600$6e931d90$d5101252@JRWXP1> <30b660a20705140949i3b4f2905o94de1407b3ef33fb@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20705140950n12209b69ga2bf1af6c36714c8@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20705140950n12209b69ga2bf1af6c36714c8@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.2.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 116 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: martin_hosken@sil.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users Dear Mark, > And also, we don't require transliterations to be invertible -- they > are then just termed transcriptions. Oooh. This explains so much. Since my definition is that transcription is the process of taking the sounds of a text in a language from one script and expressing them in a different script and is definitely not reversible. Transliteration, on the other hand, in my book, is the process of expressing the letters in one script in another and is generally designed to be reversible, if possible. I take my definitions from Jonathan Clews from the 1980's. Yours, Martin From richard.wordingham@ntlworld.com Mon May 14 17:04:20 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Mon, 14 May 2007 17:04:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.47]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4EM4Gg8004459 for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 17:04:20 -0500 Received: from aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20070514220410.VVQA2739.mtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com> for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 23:04:10 +0100 Received: from JRWXP1 ([82.18.16.213]) by aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with SMTP id <20070514220409.XWM26699.aamtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@JRWXP1> for ; Mon, 14 May 2007 23:04:09 +0100 Message-ID: <005601c79673$c93d6d40$d5101252@JRWXP1> From: "Richard Wordingham" To: References: <000d01c795cd$1e8a4180$d5101252@JRWXP1> <00e501c795f2$d759cf80$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> <003301c79600$6e931d90$d5101252@JRWXP1> <30b660a20705140949i3b4f2905o94de1407b3ef33fb@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20705140950n12209b69ga2bf1af6c36714c8@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: Transliteration of Thai Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 23:04:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-archive-position: 117 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: richard.wordingham@ntlworld.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users Mark Davis wrote on Monday, May 14, 2007 5:50 PM Subject: Re: Transliteration of Thai > And also, we don't require transliterations to be invertible -- they are > then just termed transcriptions. OK, I was reading too much into UTS #35 Version 1.4.1 Section 5.15's 'The goal for the "unqualified" script transliterations are: 1) to be lossless when going to Latin and back...'. >> 4. While we don't currently require test cases, those are very >> useful. That is, samples of pairs of text that should transliterate to >> one >> another. The reason I asked about testcases is that in two cases, TO PATAK and PHINTHU, ThaiLogical-Latin currently states that it deviates from ISO 11940:1998 because it was too difficult to make a compliant mapping invertible. It seemed easy to make it compliant, so I worry that I've missed some subtlety. As matters are not urgent, I'll float my three proposed reversions/corrections of ThaiLogical-Latin to ISO 11940:1998 here. I think of them as reversions, because it appears to have been intended as an implementation of ISO 11940:1998. Martin Hosken may have something very relevant to say on Correction 3, for he knows much more than most about minority Thai script orthographies. Correction 1: I cannot work out what is ambiguous about the transliteration of ฏ U+0E0F THAI CHARACTER TO PATAK as that then necessitates its replacement by . The encoding of ธ as does not conflict, for as a transliteration of a separate character 'h' will always be accompanied by or . However, the coding currently given would not suffice mutatis mutandis, i.e. Replacing ฏ ↔ t̩ ; # THAI CHARACTER TO PATAK by ฏ ↔ ṭ ; # THAI CHARACTER TO PATAK ฏ ← t̩ ; Legacy ICU (& CLDR 1.4.1) transliteration requires that ธ ↔ ṭh ; # THAI CHARACTER THO THONG be expanded the same way as the back-transliteration to THO TAHAN is expanded, i.e. to ธ ← ṭh } $notHAccent1; # THAI CHARACTER THO THONG ธ ↔ ṭh } $notHAccent0; # THAI CHARACTER THO THONG Correction 2: Strip out the immediately preceding comment, 'PHINTHU deviates from ISO since underring causes canonical problems. So it uses spacing tick below', and replace: ฺ ↔ ˌ ; # THAI CHARACTER PHINTHU by: \u0e3a ↔ \u0325 ; # Phinthu - standard encoding! \u0e3a ← ˌ ; # Phinthu - non-standard ICU encoding! The problems with canonical ordering appear to have been solved already. Correction 3: The transliteration of U+0E33 THAI CHARACTER SARA AM as is not ambiguous. Though it may seem to be ambiguous with the transliteration of , the latter is not a legal sequence in Thai, Pali or Sanskrit, and is prohibited by the 'vigorous' checking of WTT 2.0 according to http://www.nectec.or.th/it-standards/keyboard_layout/thai-key.htm , Section 9. It suffices to replace ำ ↔ a ̉ ; # THAI CHARACTER SARA AM ำ | $1 ← a ($notAbove*) ̉ ; # backward case, account for reordering by ำ ↔ a ̊ ; # THAI CHARACTER SARA AM ำ | $1 ← a ($notAbove*) ̊ ; # backward case, account for reordering ำ ← a ̉ ; # Legacy ICU (& CLDR 1.4.1) transliteration ำ | $1 ← a ($notAbove*) ̉ ; # backward case for ICU transliteration The test data input I used was: กะขัฃคาฅำฆิงี จึฉืชุซูเฌแญ โฎใฏไฐโฑเฒ่าเณร ดํติํถุํทฺธน บ่ป้ผ๊ฝฺพฟม ยรฤๅษีลฦว ศษสหฬอฮ อากาศฺ เฮฺ้ (illegal) ฝํ์ฝฺ์ (For a minority language?) ฏฮีฏหฏํ Apart from the English comments, it transliterated to Latin and back when used in the larger Thai-Latin context of: ::[[:thai:] ก-\u0E3Aเ-๛]; ::NFD; ::Thai-ThaiSemi; # ::Any-BreakInternal; -- not available yet in ICU4C ::Thai-ThaiLogical; ::ThaiLogical-Latin; :: (lower); ::NFC; (Taken from the ICU demonstration pages and tested using http://demo.icu-project.org/icu-bin/translit .) There do remain issues of liberality. For example, the exposition at http://www.eki.ee/knab/lat/kblth2.pdf seems to use spacing clones of some of the accent marks, and to have replaced PRIME by some sort of apostrophe. If such issues are not addressed, it may be diffcult to back-transliterate transliterations done independently of CLDR and ICU. We really want samples of transliterations based on ISO 11940:1998 that were not generated using ICU. Also should we really expect ยักษ์ (as in letter name YO YAK) to be transliterated as yạks̄ʹ̒, with an accent on the prime? It is much more natural to treat PRIME as though it had non-zero canonical combing class and generate a form like yạks̄̒ʹ, and that could well be what results from manual transliteration. (I presume we are stuck with the transliterations of SO SALA and SO RUESI being opposite to the normal Sanskritist tradition.) I'm not saying the ability to *generate* these variants should be in CLDR; I am saying that the ability to back-transliterate such variant forms back to Thai should be in CLDR. Richard. From richard.wordingham@ntlworld.com Tue May 15 03:08:05 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Tue, 15 May 2007 03:08:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com [81.103.221.49]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4F8845t023160 for ; Tue, 15 May 2007 03:08:04 -0500 Received: from aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20070515080755.OYXR16175.mtaout03-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com> for ; Tue, 15 May 2007 09:07:55 +0100 Received: from JRWXP1 ([82.18.16.213]) by aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com with SMTP id <20070515080755.DJMM29112.aamtaout04-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@JRWXP1> for ; Tue, 15 May 2007 09:07:55 +0100 Message-ID: <004401c796c8$21cdf5c0$d5101252@JRWXP1> From: "Richard Wordingham" To: References: <000d01c795cd$1e8a4180$d5101252@JRWXP1> <00e501c795f2$d759cf80$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> <003301c79600$6e931d90$d5101252@JRWXP1> <30b660a20705140949i3b4f2905o94de1407b3ef33fb@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20705140950n12209b69ga2bf1af6c36714c8@mail.gmail.com> <005601c79673$c93d6d40$d5101252@JRWXP1> Subject: Re: Transliteration of Thai Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 09:07:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-archive-position: 118 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: richard.wordingham@ntlworld.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users I wrote on Monday, May 14, 2007 11:04 PM > Also should we really expect ยักษ์ (as in letter name YO YAK) to be > transliterated as yạks̄ʹ̒, with an accent on the prime? It is much more > natural to treat PRIME as though it had non-zero canonical combing class > and generate a form like yạks̄̒ʹ, and that could well be what results from > manual transliteration. Of course, were anyone to actually apply the ISO 11940 transliteration as specified, they would use not PRIME, but U+031B COMBINING HORN, which is of canonical combining class 216! Richard. From lafriks@gmail.com Mon May 21 15:39:30 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Mon, 21 May 2007 15:47:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.227]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4LKdU8F008768 for ; Mon, 21 May 2007 15:39:30 -0500 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i28so1508026wra for ; Mon, 21 May 2007 13:39:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=aavBukuUdPoDYJbMJhymObedES4tlVmdofnoFBy+uZGhwD3Ha4HJOKa0dcmpRVDTiQxMZhC+gjiEcQHrsx0UvOHi2xtdFOLlqMmnIDPJy8Ld35Uu9m1XRBClSwZOwSB3OFu4lImVeIjzdnQjO6kLAqJqf8vADoUu6zIMf3a2omU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=AUdMCAQwG3V49VgYjGEHzqxb9RgfOZvxgPHjSdKseXc/0xGXyb6c4qxK/iAV2mwxap4STdSGtIDhgAGQntguz+cmndH6H6qAwkNrW8nmu+MtCvYX38MvzKOvNWS/8j3riAH2LBqJY0rf+y8BXdx0uYgXFkdJSBzMkvpLMBtOp6g= Received: by 10.114.74.1 with SMTP id w1mr2913882waa.1179779968867; Mon, 21 May 2007 13:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.61.19 with HTTP; Mon, 21 May 2007 13:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <890f9ce10705211339l65ddf9f5ye1016458e6b8150@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 23:39:28 +0300 From: "=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Lauris_Buk=9Ais-Haberkorns?=" To: cldr-users@unicode.org Subject: LV locale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-13; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by unicode.org id l4LKdU8F008768 X-archive-position: 119 X-Approved-By: v-magdad@microsoft.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: lafriks@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users Hi, I don't know if I'm writing to right list, sorry if I'm not :) I'm software developer and have quite good experience in translating software to Latvian language. I did quick review of http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/main/lv.xml There are some places I would like to mention. 1) in /ldml/delimiters - most usually we use double quotes, I think they should be primary not alternate. 2) I think eras abbreviations should be "p.m.." and "m.." 3) Date formats medium and short are completely wrong. Never seen in Latvia anyone using such formats. Can't find any reference at the moment but these should look something like "dd.MM.yyyy." and "d.M.yy." (not sure about the last one) 4) also yesstr is wrong it should be "j:ja:j" (in Latvian "yes" is "j") I would like to help out in updating Latvian locale if help is needed. regards, Lauris From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Mon May 21 16:28:44 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Mon, 21 May 2007 16:28:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com (nz-out-0506.google.com [64.233.162.232]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4LLSixd004201 for ; Mon, 21 May 2007 16:28:44 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s18so2799100nze for ; Mon, 21 May 2007 14:28:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=OTAFqWCmHe6Cz80LmsDhT0x873eEUb5iMoax4Up4mQDBMM+zMqqXrN7AAQj616pltUXeZNlFnSy8hNGY61BJOPBNFQLfnyc3yJK7yfC2NiEQV5uByUipIbpAyMW3gkA+HXj2x+NAGdWku9akdbVSapA0PBpJGlM4pkef0UtNitw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=pXw1pehY2DVZuN9bk3aky6bGqK++pmwB2x8NB3fb+spHj60Vnk/VXek4FQ6yhxheDd1FzFVzRDmQgEV4ZzDzWw6hhc5H8WcmajIQlB5RfQIhKVtzpiQo3klKes2wbWxi4mkfurJQzjzgGYZ6lWpllJkwfd5RZITnxwvBg6N93aY= Received: by 10.114.74.1 with SMTP id w1mr2936824waa.1179782923159; Mon, 21 May 2007 14:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.192.10 with HTTP; Mon, 21 May 2007 14:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <30b660a20705211428x46fb740emf77dd6c93f7c9f24@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 14:28:43 -0700 From: "Mark Davis" To: cldr-users@unicode.org, "=?UTF-8?Q?Lauris_Buk=C5=A1is-Haberkorns?=" Subject: Re: LV locale In-Reply-To: <890f9ce10705211339l65ddf9f5ye1016458e6b8150@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_115399_19690713.1179782923089" References: <890f9ce10705211339l65ddf9f5ye1016458e6b8150@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: ef4c3813fb8eed3b X-archive-position: 120 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: mark.davis@icu-project.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users ------=_Part_115399_19690713.1179782923089 Content-Type: text/plain; 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list cldr-users); Tue, 22 May 2007 01:54:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from etna.obsidianonline.net (etna.obsidian.co.za [196.36.119.67]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4M6sUhH000882 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 01:54:31 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by etna.obsidianonline.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF87595382 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 08:54:25 +0200 (SAST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at obsidianonline.net Received: from etna.obsidianonline.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (etna.obsidianonline.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jKShwtoWr55J for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 08:54:20 +0200 (SAST) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (dsl-241-152-233.telkomadsl.co.za [41.241.152.233]) by etna.obsidianonline.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B544154C5F1 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 08:54:20 +0200 (SAST) Subject: Re: symbols/group non-breaking space From: Dwayne Bailey To: cldr-users@unicode.org In-Reply-To: <30b660a20705141002k44552df1n57854aee2f81f167@mail.gmail.com> References: <1179143895.2552.37.camel@dhcppc2> <30b660a20705141002k44552df1n57854aee2f81f167@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Organization: Translate.org.za Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 08:51:07 +0200 Message-Id: <1179816667.13373.71.camel@dhcppc2> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.3 (2.8.3-2.fc6) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-archive-position: 121 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: dwayne@translate.org.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users I've read that whole page and didn't see any info re nbsp. So either I missed it or pointing to that page is not the answer I need. On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 10:02 -0700, Mark Davis wrote: > See http://www.unicode.org/cldr/survey_tool.html > > On 5/14/07, Andreas Prilop wrote: > On Mon, 14 May 2007, Dwayne Bailey wrote: > > > In South Africa we use the non-breaking space as a group > separator for > > numbers. > > It's the same in Germany. German standard DIN 1333 > http://www.beuth.de/langanzeige/DIN+1333/1819868.html > and the German "Duden" (German equivalent to OED) > http://www.duden.de/ > specify a space (i.e. some kind of white space) as > group separator for numbers. > > This is also the established practice in German typography. > As an example, see the latest edition of "Brockhaus > Enzyklopädie". > http://www.brockhaus.de/enzyklopaedie/ > > > However, the CLDR *wrongly* has a period (.) as group > separator > in the German language. > How to correct this? > > > > > -- > Mark -- Dwayne Bailey Translate.org.za +27-12-460-1095 (w) +27-83-443-7114 (cell) From lafriks@gmail.com Tue May 22 05:16:07 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Tue, 22 May 2007 05:16:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com (wr-out-0506.google.com [64.233.184.226]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4MAG6uR013831 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 05:16:07 -0500 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i28so1673674wra for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 03:16:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=lMYekikj/uWXp2a+ky9dE7oa1qUwNuXtWSmIC4ahFPI0dk/vCujzRJvSPtyGvwNuCUPp982uLY57DRXC4ku688VvCJMdhOCbUagoRfjRKdbWVvRon3A0wBpjVGownRxPiG7G7FtUACO8Apsp7EGF1ziPRAuSWzeXvD+7sc/04JY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tObG1TSKtpZLLhF6IAm1U26tTHOQwtht3NypExcnk6FN7yitYPPxjMb4XRo3pmIHEkQnaGSVyXy7iJs9Q5La0kA7AnpRvO0CQGgxKR/x9AGopdOw5npSChRBmHKXVXSlkpfpaTy5Ck1HWQxKa9dlmNeSvbS6ezfuRfjhIS0huGo= Received: by 10.114.92.2 with SMTP id p2mr3214283wab.1179828962090; Tue, 22 May 2007 03:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.61.19 with HTTP; Tue, 22 May 2007 03:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <890f9ce10705220316g15f6c8e4sba06baa54b832713@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 13:16:02 +0300 From: "=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Lauris_Buk=9Ais-Haberkorns?=" To: cldr-users@unicode.org Subject: Re: LV locale In-Reply-To: <30b660a20705211428x46fb740emf77dd6c93f7c9f24@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline References: <890f9ce10705211339l65ddf9f5ye1016458e6b8150@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20705211428x46fb740emf77dd6c93f7c9f24@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by unicode.org id l4MAG6uR013831 X-archive-position: 122 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: lafriks@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users I wanted to ask why in Latvian locale posix/​messages/​yesstr string "ājā:ja:j" is wining while it's grammatically incorrect. There should be "jā:ja:j". How much votes does the first one got? :) Lauris On 5/22/07, Mark Davis wrote: > Thanks for volunteering. You can get an account and contribute as described > on http://unicode.org/cldr/survey_tool.html. > > Mark > > > On 5/21/07, Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I don't know if I'm writing to right list, sorry if I'm not :) I'm > > software developer and have quite good experience in translating > > software to Latvian language. I did quick review of > > http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/main/lv.xml > > There are some places I would like to mention. > > 1) in /ldml/delimiters - most usually we use double quotes, I think > > they should be primary not alternate. > > 2) I think eras abbreviations should be "p.m.ē." and "m.ē." > > 3) Date formats medium and short are completely wrong. Never seen in > > Latvia anyone using such formats. Can't find any reference at the > > moment but these should look something like "dd.MM.yyyy." and > > "d.M.yy." (not sure about the last one) > > 4) also yesstr is wrong it should be "jā:ja:j" (in Latvian "yes" is "jā") > > > > I would like to help out in updating Latvian locale if help is needed. > > > > regards, > > Lauris > > > > > > > > > > -- > Mark -- Lafriks =) From verdy_p@wanadoo.fr Tue May 22 05:19:14 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Tue, 22 May 2007 05:19:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp25.orange.fr (smtp25.orange.fr [193.252.22.24]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4MAJDAd016226 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 05:19:14 -0500 Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf2547.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4FD981C00089 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 12:19:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from HARNON (APoitiers-156-1-32-77.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.50.111.77]) by mwinf2547.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id DAA241C00081 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 12:19:07 +0200 (CEST) X-ME-UUID: 20070522101907895.DAA241C00081@mwinf2547.orange.fr From: "Philippe Verdy" To: References: <1179143895.2552.37.camel@dhcppc2> <30b660a20705141002k44552df1n57854aee2f81f167@mail.gmail.com> <1179816667.13373.71.camel@dhcppc2> Subject: RE: symbols/group non-breaking space Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 12:19:02 +0200 Organization: Ordinateur Personnel Message-ID: <00cc01c79c5a$9ec92300$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 thread-index: AcecPuGWdzDsNamJTmGBdaOI4LihvAAGNDcA In-Reply-To: <1179816667.13373.71.camel@dhcppc2> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id l4MAJDAd016226 X-archive-position: 123 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: verdy_p@wanadoo.fr Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users Regarding South Africa, the decimal separator for currency amounts is apparently commonly changed to a hyphen, instead of a period. E.g., "R 2 000-00" or "R 2000-00" means two thousands rands. I wonder how this can be tweaked without confusing numeric parsers with minus signs, notably because the same character is used for negative values (in some billings), however this is found without using a currency indicator, so the format uses normal numeric notation (most often without any group separator like "2000.00" or "-2000.00"). Sometimes this numeric notation is prefixed by a currency symbol like "ZAR 2000.00" or "ZAR -2000.00" in international billing statements that mix several currencies ; see PayPal accounts as an example where the detailed billing mixes lines using several currencies for conversions). In the CLDR Survey Tool, the "currency/​standard/​standard" entry for S.A.-English currently indicates that the dot is used as the decimal separator, but another proposal indicates the comma. No proposal suggests the minus-hyphen which seems very common (if I look at various south African online shops on the web). What is unambiguous is that the group separator is some non-breaking space, and the list-separator is the semi-colon. But Windows currently selects the format "R 123,456,789.00", using a comma as the group separator (conflicting with the comma used as a list separator), and the dot as the decimal separator (as for US and UK English). Who's right there? > -----Message d'origine----- > De : cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org] > De la part de Dwayne Bailey > Envoyé : mardi 22 mai 2007 08:51 > À : cldr-users@unicode.org > Objet : Re: symbols/group non-breaking space > > I've read that whole page and didn't see any info re nbsp. So either I > missed it or pointing to that page is not the answer I need. > > On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 10:02 -0700, Mark Davis wrote: > > See http://www.unicode.org/cldr/survey_tool.html > > > > On 5/14/07, Andreas Prilop wrote: > > On Mon, 14 May 2007, Dwayne Bailey wrote: > > > > > In South Africa we use the non-breaking space as a group > > separator for > > > numbers. > > > > It's the same in Germany. German standard DIN 1333 > > http://www.beuth.de/langanzeige/DIN+1333/1819868.html > > and the German "Duden" (German equivalent to OED) > > http://www.duden.de/ > > specify a space (i.e. some kind of white space) as > > group separator for numbers. > > > > This is also the established practice in German typography. > > As an example, see the latest edition of "Brockhaus > > Enzyklopädie". > > http://www.brockhaus.de/enzyklopaedie/ > > > > > > However, the CLDR *wrongly* has a period (.) as group > > separator > > in the German language. > > How to correct this? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Mark > -- > Dwayne Bailey > Translate.org.za > > +27-12-460-1095 (w) > +27-83-443-7114 (cell) > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------- > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------- > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > From dwayne@translate.org.za Tue May 22 06:49:41 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Tue, 22 May 2007 06:49:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from etna.obsidianonline.net (etna.obsidian.co.za [196.36.119.67]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4MBndce001551 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 06:49:40 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by etna.obsidianonline.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45C0E595A48 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 13:49:31 +0200 (SAST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at obsidianonline.net Received: from etna.obsidianonline.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (etna.obsidianonline.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mmEXOuPcWUwd for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 13:49:23 +0200 (SAST) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (dsl-241-152-233.telkomadsl.co.za [41.241.152.233]) by etna.obsidianonline.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D55C59537D for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 13:49:23 +0200 (SAST) Subject: RE: symbols/group non-breaking space From: Dwayne Bailey To: cldr-users@unicode.org In-Reply-To: <00cc01c79c5a$9ec92300$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> References: <1179143895.2552.37.camel@dhcppc2> <30b660a20705141002k44552df1n57854aee2f81f167@mail.gmail.com> <1179816667.13373.71.camel@dhcppc2> <00cc01c79c5a$9ec92300$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Organization: Translate.org.za Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 13:46:11 +0200 Message-Id: <1179834372.13373.124.camel@dhcppc2> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.3 (2.8.3-2.fc6) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-archive-position: 124 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: dwayne@translate.org.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users No, minus is not a valid char. We have a slight dilemma as both the other two you mention are in common use: nbsp and comma are legal and are used in contracts and newspapers comma and point are often used in computers mainly due to the influence of software I'm not sure if both can be specified as valid. On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 12:19 +0200, Philippe Verdy wrote: > Regarding South Africa, the decimal separator for currency amounts is apparently commonly changed to a hyphen, instead of a period. > > E.g., "R 2 000-00" or "R 2000-00" means two thousands rands. > > I wonder how this can be tweaked without confusing numeric parsers with minus signs, notably because the same character is used for negative values (in some billings), however this is found without using a currency indicator, so the format uses normal numeric notation (most often without any group separator like "2000.00" or "-2000.00"). > > Sometimes this numeric notation is prefixed by a currency symbol like "ZAR 2000.00" or "ZAR -2000.00" in international billing statements that mix several currencies ; see PayPal accounts as an example where the detailed billing mixes lines using several currencies for conversions). > > In the CLDR Survey Tool, the "currency/​standard/​standard" entry for S.A.-English currently indicates that the dot is used as the decimal separator, but another proposal indicates the comma. No proposal suggests the minus-hyphen which seems very common (if I look at various south African online shops on the web). > > What is unambiguous is that the group separator is some non-breaking space, and the list-separator is the semi-colon. But Windows currently selects the format "R 123,456,789.00", using a comma as the group separator (conflicting with the comma used as a list separator), and the dot as the decimal separator (as for US and UK English). Who's right there? > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org] > > De la part de Dwayne Bailey > > Envoyé : mardi 22 mai 2007 08:51 > > À : cldr-users@unicode.org > > Objet : Re: symbols/group non-breaking space > > > > I've read that whole page and didn't see any info re nbsp. So either I > > missed it or pointing to that page is not the answer I need. > > > > On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 10:02 -0700, Mark Davis wrote: > > > See http://www.unicode.org/cldr/survey_tool.html > > > > > > On 5/14/07, Andreas Prilop wrote: > > > On Mon, 14 May 2007, Dwayne Bailey wrote: > > > > > > > In South Africa we use the non-breaking space as a group > > > separator for > > > > numbers. > > > > > > It's the same in Germany. German standard DIN 1333 > > > http://www.beuth.de/langanzeige/DIN+1333/1819868.html > > > and the German "Duden" (German equivalent to OED) > > > http://www.duden.de/ > > > specify a space (i.e. some kind of white space) as > > > group separator for numbers. > > > > > > This is also the established practice in German typography. > > > As an example, see the latest edition of "Brockhaus > > > Enzyklopädie". > > > http://www.brockhaus.de/enzyklopaedie/ > > > > > > > > > However, the CLDR *wrongly* has a period (.) as group > > > separator > > > in the German language. > > > How to correct this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Mark > > -- > > Dwayne Bailey > > Translate.org.za > > > > +27-12-460-1095 (w) > > +27-83-443-7114 (cell) > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------- > > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. > > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > > > > > > > > -- Dwayne Bailey Translate.org.za +27-12-460-1095 (w) +27-83-443-7114 (cell) From AndreasPrilop2007@trashmail.net Tue May 22 10:39:50 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Tue, 22 May 2007 10:39:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from authsmtp.rrzn.uni-hannover.de (authsmtp.rrzn.uni-hannover.de [130.75.2.107]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4MFdnSv032385 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 10:39:50 -0500 Received: from s5b004 (s5b004.rrzn.uni-hannover.de [130.75.6.34]) by authsmtp.rrzn.uni-hannover.de (8.13.8/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l4MFdfkJ030820 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 17:39:43 +0200 Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 17:39:41 +0200 (MEST) From: Andreas Prilop To: cldr-users@unicode.org Subject: Re: symbols/group non-breaking space In-Reply-To: <1179816667.13373.71.camel@dhcppc2> Message-ID: References: <1179143895.2552.37.camel@dhcppc2> <30b660a20705141002k44552df1n57854aee2f81f167@mail.gmail.com> <1179816667.13373.71.camel@dhcppc2> Organization: -- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-PMX-Version: 5.3.0.289146, Antispam-Engine: 2.5.0.283055, Antispam-Data: 2007.5.22.81149 X-archive-position: 125 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: AndreasPrilop2007@trashmail.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users On Tue, 22 May 2007, Dwayne Bailey wrote: > I've read that whole page and didn't see any info re nbsp. So either I > missed it or pointing to that page is not the answer I need. > >> http://www.beuth.de/langanzeige/DIN+1333/1819868.html >> http://www.duden.de/ >> http://www.brockhaus.de/enzyklopaedie/ The information is in the *printed* material. You need to go to a library or to a bookshop. There *is* life outside the Internet. From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Tue May 22 11:10:16 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Tue, 22 May 2007 11:10:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4MGAFVp025590 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 11:10:16 -0500 Received: from c83-248-111-37.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.111.37]:3422 helo=WGBGKKA02) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.66) (envelope-from ) id 1HqWw8-0001ol-5E for cldr-users@unicode.org; Tue, 22 May 2007 18:10:15 +0200 From: "Kent Karlsson" To: References: <1179143895.2552.37.camel@dhcppc2> <30b660a20705141002k44552df1n57854aee2f81f167@mail.gmail.com> <1179816667.13373.71.camel@dhcppc2> <00cc01c79c5a$9ec92300$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> <1179834372.13373.124.camel@dhcppc2> Subject: RE: symbols/group non-breaking space Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 18:12:24 +0200 Message-ID: <000301c79c8b$ff507a80$256ff853@streamserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <1179834372.13373.124.camel@dhcppc2> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcecZ3wKcXiSCA+NTQ+AUDvibVpt3AAAm6vQ X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1HqWw8-0001ol-5E. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1HqWw8-0001ol-5E 5d063af1e7da906f052b1a8e7e3fec3a Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id l4MGAFVp025590 X-archive-position: 126 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users How do you mean "not valid"? It seems common enough not to be discarded off-hand. In that use it should cause no problems either for output (formatting of a currency value) nor even for input (parsing of a currency value), since the negation sign would (I do hope) occur in a different position (and preferably use MINUS SIGN rather than HYPHEN-MINUS). However, Survey tool (so far) does not allow for a currency decimal separator that is different from the "ordinary" decimal separator. Likewise for the grouping separator. But LDML seems to allow for such data. /kent k > -----Original Message----- > From: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org > [mailto:cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Dwayne Bailey > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:46 PM > To: cldr-users@unicode.org > Subject: RE: symbols/group non-breaking space > > No, minus is not a valid char. > > We have a slight dilemma as both the other two you mention > are in common > use: > > nbsp and comma are legal and are used in contracts and newspapers > comma and point are often used in computers mainly due to the > influence > of software > > I'm not sure if both can be specified as valid. > > On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 12:19 +0200, Philippe Verdy wrote: > > Regarding South Africa, the decimal separator for currency > amounts is apparently commonly changed to a hyphen, instead > of a period. > > > > E.g., "R 2 000-00" or "R 2000-00" means two thousands rands. > > > > I wonder how this can be tweaked without confusing numeric > parsers with minus signs, notably because the same character > is used for negative values (in some billings), however this > is found without using a currency indicator, so the format > uses normal numeric notation (most often without any group > separator like "2000.00" or "-2000.00"). > > > > Sometimes this numeric notation is prefixed by a currency > symbol like "ZAR 2000.00" or "ZAR -2000.00" in international > billing statements that mix several currencies ; see PayPal > accounts as an example where the detailed billing mixes lines > using several currencies for conversions). > > > > In the CLDR Survey Tool, the "currency/​standard/​standard" > entry for S.A.-English currently indicates that the dot is > used as the decimal separator, but another proposal indicates > the comma. No proposal suggests the minus-hyphen which seems > very common (if I look at various south African online shops > on the web). > > > > What is unambiguous is that the group separator is some > non-breaking space, and the list-separator is the semi-colon. > But Windows currently selects the format "R 123,456,789.00", > using a comma as the group separator (conflicting with the > comma used as a list separator), and the dot as the decimal > separator (as for US and UK English). Who's right there? > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De : cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org > [mailto:cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org] > > > De la part de Dwayne Bailey > > > Envoyé : mardi 22 mai 2007 08:51 > > > À : cldr-users@unicode.org > > > Objet : Re: symbols/group non-breaking space > > > > > > I've read that whole page and didn't see any info re > nbsp. So either I > > > missed it or pointing to that page is not the answer I need. > > > > > > On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 10:02 -0700, Mark Davis wrote: > > > > See http://www.unicode.org/cldr/survey_tool.html > > > > > > > > On 5/14/07, Andreas Prilop > wrote: > > > > On Mon, 14 May 2007, Dwayne Bailey wrote: > > > > > > > > > In South Africa we use the non-breaking space > as a group > > > > separator for > > > > > numbers. > > > > > > > > It's the same in Germany. German standard DIN 1333 > > > > http://www.beuth.de/langanzeige/DIN+1333/1819868.html > > > > and the German "Duden" (German equivalent to OED) > > > > http://www.duden.de/ > > > > specify a space (i.e. some kind of white space) as > > > > group separator for numbers. > > > > > > > > This is also the established practice in German > typography. > > > > As an example, see the latest edition of "Brockhaus > > > > Enzyklopädie". > > > > http://www.brockhaus.de/enzyklopaedie/ > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the CLDR *wrongly* has a period (.) as group > > > > separator > > > > in the German language. > > > > How to correct this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Mark > > > -- > > > Dwayne Bailey > > > Translate.org.za > > > > > > +27-12-460-1095 (w) > > > +27-83-443-7114 (cell) > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > > ------------- > > > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par > l'anti-virus mail. > > > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------ > > > ------------- > > > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par > l'anti-virus mail. > > > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Dwayne Bailey > Translate.org.za > > +27-12-460-1095 (w) > +27-83-443-7114 (cell) > > From dzo@bisharat.net Tue May 22 11:32:15 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Tue, 22 May 2007 11:32:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kabissa.org (113166.kabissa.org [72.32.199.201]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4MGWF5H008685 for ; Tue, 22 May 2007 11:32:15 -0500 Received: (qmail 1919 invoked from network); 22 May 2007 11:32:15 -0500 Received: from pool-71-252-103-14.washdc.east.verizon.net (HELO IBM92AA25595C4) (71.252.103.14) by 72.32.229.137 with SMTP; 22 May 2007 11:32:14 -0500 From: "Don Osborn" To: References: <1179143895.2552.37.camel@dhcppc2> <30b660a20705141002k44552df1n57854aee2f81f167@mail.gmail.com> <1179816667.13373.71.camel@dhcppc2> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: symbols/group non-breaking space Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 12:32:10 -0400 Message-ID: <011401c79c8e$bf260ee0$3d722ca0$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: Acech5PyVsPNLLETSk29r8mmqDlRkAAAxF1g Content-Language: en-us X-archive-position: 127 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: dzo@bisharat.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users Hi Andreas, Your remark may not have been intended as a cheap shot but it came across that way. It may be that you misunderstood that he was (if I'm not the one mistaken) referring to the http://www.unicode.org/cldr/survey_tool.html page and not the URLs you copied in your message? In any event, Dwayne happens to be one of the folks involved in localization who is the *most* tuned in to "life outside the internet" as you put it (e.g., translate-a-thons in South Africa). From looking over this thread the quick question I have is whether there is a need for and way of improving access to information relevant to CLDR such as Dwayne is seeking - on the Unicode.org/cldr pages. As more people from more places work on more locales for more languages, one imagines there will be more such questions relating to the survey tool, and referring them to bookstores and libraries will be even less helpful than it is now. All the best. Don > -----Original Message----- > From: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:cldr-users- > bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Andreas Prilop > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:40 AM > To: cldr-users@unicode.org > Subject: Re: symbols/group non-breaking space > > On Tue, 22 May 2007, Dwayne Bailey wrote: > > > I've read that whole page and didn't see any info re nbsp. So either > I > > missed it or pointing to that page is not the answer I need. > > > >> http://www.beuth.de/langanzeige/DIN+1333/1819868.html > >> http://www.duden.de/ > >> http://www.brockhaus.de/enzyklopaedie/ > > The information is in the *printed* material. > You need to go to a library or to a bookshop. > There *is* life outside the Internet. From dwayne@translate.org.za Wed May 23 02:15:29 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Wed, 23 May 2007 02:15:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from etna.obsidianonline.net (etna.obsidian.co.za [196.36.119.67]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4N7FMWI024991 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:15:29 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by etna.obsidianonline.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D69A4E20FB for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:49:58 +0200 (SAST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at obsidianonline.net Received: from etna.obsidianonline.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (etna.obsidianonline.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JoSuG4MEiz-A for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:49:40 +0200 (SAST) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (dsl-241-129-161.telkomadsl.co.za [41.241.129.161]) by etna.obsidianonline.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5E149A83B for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 05:49:39 +0200 (SAST) Subject: RE: symbols/group non-breaking space From: Dwayne Bailey To: cldr-users@unicode.org In-Reply-To: <000301c79c8b$ff507a80$256ff853@streamserve.com> References: <1179143895.2552.37.camel@dhcppc2> <30b660a20705141002k44552df1n57854aee2f81f167@mail.gmail.com> <1179816667.13373.71.camel@dhcppc2> <00cc01c79c5a$9ec92300$0a01a8c0@rodage.dyndns.org> <1179834372.13373.124.camel@dhcppc2> <000301c79c8b$ff507a80$256ff853@streamserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Organization: Translate.org.za Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 05:46:24 +0200 Message-Id: <1179891984.3011.0.camel@dhcppc2> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.3 (2.8.3-2.fc6) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-archive-position: 128 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: dwayne@translate.org.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users I mean not valid as in we don't use that system in South Africa no matter what you might have seen online. On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 18:12 +0200, Kent Karlsson wrote: > How do you mean "not valid"? It seems common enough not to be > discarded off-hand. In that use it should cause no problems > either for output (formatting of a currency value) nor even > for input (parsing of a currency value), since the negation > sign would (I do hope) occur in a different position (and > preferably use MINUS SIGN rather than HYPHEN-MINUS). > > However, Survey tool (so far) does not allow for a currency > decimal separator that is different from the "ordinary" > decimal separator. Likewise for the grouping separator. > But LDML seems to allow for such data. > > /kent k > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org > > [mailto:cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Dwayne Bailey > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 1:46 PM > > To: cldr-users@unicode.org > > Subject: RE: symbols/group non-breaking space > > > > No, minus is not a valid char. > > > > We have a slight dilemma as both the other two you mention > > are in common > > use: > > > > nbsp and comma are legal and are used in contracts and newspapers > > comma and point are often used in computers mainly due to the > > influence > > of software > > > > I'm not sure if both can be specified as valid. > > > > On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 12:19 +0200, Philippe Verdy wrote: > > > Regarding South Africa, the decimal separator for currency > > amounts is apparently commonly changed to a hyphen, instead > > of a period. > > > > > > E.g., "R 2 000-00" or "R 2000-00" means two thousands rands. > > > > > > I wonder how this can be tweaked without confusing numeric > > parsers with minus signs, notably because the same character > > is used for negative values (in some billings), however this > > is found without using a currency indicator, so the format > > uses normal numeric notation (most often without any group > > separator like "2000.00" or "-2000.00"). > > > > > > Sometimes this numeric notation is prefixed by a currency > > symbol like "ZAR 2000.00" or "ZAR -2000.00" in international > > billing statements that mix several currencies ; see PayPal > > accounts as an example where the detailed billing mixes lines > > using several currencies for conversions). > > > > > > In the CLDR Survey Tool, the "currency/​standard/​standard" > > entry for S.A.-English currently indicates that the dot is > > used as the decimal separator, but another proposal indicates > > the comma. No proposal suggests the minus-hyphen which seems > > very common (if I look at various south African online shops > > on the web). > > > > > > What is unambiguous is that the group separator is some > > non-breaking space, and the list-separator is the semi-colon. > > But Windows currently selects the format "R 123,456,789.00", > > using a comma as the group separator (conflicting with the > > comma used as a list separator), and the dot as the decimal > > separator (as for US and UK English). Who's right there? > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > > De : cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org > > [mailto:cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org] > > > > De la part de Dwayne Bailey > > > > Envoyé : mardi 22 mai 2007 08:51 > > > > À : cldr-users@unicode.org > > > > Objet : Re: symbols/group non-breaking space > > > > > > > > I've read that whole page and didn't see any info re > > nbsp. So either I > > > > missed it or pointing to that page is not the answer I need. > > > > > > > > On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 10:02 -0700, Mark Davis wrote: > > > > > See http://www.unicode.org/cldr/survey_tool.html > > > > > > > > > > On 5/14/07, Andreas Prilop > > wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 14 May 2007, Dwayne Bailey wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > In South Africa we use the non-breaking space > > as a group > > > > > separator for > > > > > > numbers. > > > > > > > > > > It's the same in Germany. German standard DIN 1333 > > > > > http://www.beuth.de/langanzeige/DIN+1333/1819868.html > > > > > and the German "Duden" (German equivalent to OED) > > > > > http://www.duden.de/ > > > > > specify a space (i.e. some kind of white space) as > > > > > group separator for numbers. > > > > > > > > > > This is also the established practice in German > > typography. > > > > > As an example, see the latest edition of "Brockhaus > > > > > Enzyklopädie". > > > > > http://www.brockhaus.de/enzyklopaedie/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, the CLDR *wrongly* has a period (.) as group > > > > > separator > > > > > in the German language. > > > > > How to correct this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Mark > > > > -- > > > > Dwayne Bailey > > > > Translate.org.za > > > > > > > > +27-12-460-1095 (w) > > > > +27-83-443-7114 (cell) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------ > > > > ------------- > > > > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par > > l'anti-virus mail. > > > > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------ > > > > ------------- > > > > Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par > > l'anti-virus mail. > > > > Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Dwayne Bailey > > Translate.org.za > > > > +27-12-460-1095 (w) > > +27-83-443-7114 (cell) > > > > > > > -- Dwayne Bailey Translate.org.za +27-12-460-1095 (w) +27-83-443-7114 (cell) From dwayne@translate.org.za Wed May 23 02:32:03 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Wed, 23 May 2007 02:32:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from etna.obsidianonline.net (etna.obsidian.co.za [196.36.119.67]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4N7W19H008191 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 02:32:02 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by etna.obsidianonline.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36F0D585022 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 06:00:21 +0200 (SAST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at obsidianonline.net Received: from etna.obsidianonline.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (etna.obsidianonline.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SuUU6jCbAdYc for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 06:00:03 +0200 (SAST) Received: from [192.168.0.4] (dsl-241-129-161.telkomadsl.co.za [41.241.129.161]) by etna.obsidianonline.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0146F579101 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 06:00:02 +0200 (SAST) Subject: RE: symbols/group non-breaking space From: Dwayne Bailey To: cldr-users@unicode.org In-Reply-To: <011401c79c8e$bf260ee0$3d722ca0$@net> References: <1179143895.2552.37.camel@dhcppc2> <30b660a20705141002k44552df1n57854aee2f81f167@mail.gmail.com> <1179816667.13373.71.camel@dhcppc2> <011401c79c8e$bf260ee0$3d722ca0$@net> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Translate.org.za Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 05:56:48 +0200 Message-Id: <1179892608.3011.11.camel@dhcppc2> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.8.3 (2.8.3-2.fc6) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 129 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: dwayne@translate.org.za Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users Thanks Don :) Yes it would be nice if just one person actually answered my question which I thought was stated quite simply. Let me restate it as clearly I wasn't clear enough: * I wanted to enter nbsp for the group separator (this is actually the legally accepted way of writing numbers in South Africa, although common convention now uses the American way thus the question about 2 styles) - in entering it in the tool a) there is no easy way to actually see that you entered the character correctly. b) it creates a warning that about spaces being invalid in the field. So I'm not sure if this is a bug or if there is a special way to enter these difficult characters or even in fact if nbsp should be added to the common characters. * Doing 2 different type of group and decimal separators - seems it could be allowed in LDML (I'm not going to investigate that now) Hope that helps and this thread can end. A note on user friendliness. I have contributed 11 locales. I also help a lot of Africans contribute locales. With the kind of guidance and assumptions I've read on this a _users_ list I'm wondering if I should be pointing people here. Can we please remember that people that appear here will be experts on their countries and languages but most probably not experts on locales. On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 12:32 -0400, Don Osborn wrote: > Hi Andreas, Your remark may not have been intended as a cheap shot but it > came across that way. It may be that you misunderstood that he was (if I'm > not the one mistaken) referring to the > http://www.unicode.org/cldr/survey_tool.html page and not the URLs you > copied in your message? In any event, Dwayne happens to be one of the folks > involved in localization who is the *most* tuned in to "life outside the > internet" as you put it (e.g., translate-a-thons in South Africa). > > From looking over this thread the quick question I have is whether there is > a need for and way of improving access to information relevant to CLDR such > as Dwayne is seeking - on the Unicode.org/cldr pages. As more people from > more places work on more locales for more languages, one imagines there will > be more such questions relating to the survey tool, and referring them to > bookstores and libraries will be even less helpful than it is now. > > All the best. > > Don > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:cldr-users- > > bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Andreas Prilop > > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 11:40 AM > > To: cldr-users@unicode.org > > Subject: Re: symbols/group non-breaking space > > > > On Tue, 22 May 2007, Dwayne Bailey wrote: > > > > > I've read that whole page and didn't see any info re nbsp. So either > > I > > > missed it or pointing to that page is not the answer I need. > > > > > >> http://www.beuth.de/langanzeige/DIN+1333/1819868.html > > >> http://www.duden.de/ > > >> http://www.brockhaus.de/enzyklopaedie/ > > > > The information is in the *printed* material. > > You need to go to a library or to a bookshop. > > There *is* life outside the Internet. > > > > -- Dwayne Bailey Translate.org.za +27-12-460-1095 (w) +27-83-443-7114 (cell) From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Wed May 23 10:38:44 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Wed, 23 May 2007 10:38:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com (nz-out-0506.google.com [64.233.162.232]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4NFciAf014725 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:38:44 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f1so233677nzc for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:38:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; 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list cldr-users); Wed, 23 May 2007 10:46:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com (nz-out-0506.google.com [64.233.162.232]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4NFk8w8019420 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 10:46:08 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f1so236705nzc for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:46:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=erk4lBBMkmaUXVxcGZh6IbUNrtjF6pQpOeiqkvAkGQ/goJsmBY9nT15l5KwN+27tURHIsZ6r/h8jCfMUVuUnA5x7FlDCKAqc3gzs6+G0j4xfRq9nY8tTI2IWf2UsZ72OjhaVpm4/+u5Y1gIhc2QC4+G4JfiP0FpCGwgvOKls3VA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=rZzRwsrbjSJK1Fdh+8uzr4CkGHO3ASyoMvG6PiQauCZ1WS1Z0u+lwbhN/TOW4JAnI5mwowKi247QcWz8Sg1sV4GHi35ejlU46//9wLOj6+x8k2fw4vW76usEbkIe83yb1RFl15pWIIqRqSwcxXpKd/SuJE7vElo3cMzi6PKQXg8= Received: by 10.114.106.1 with SMTP id e1mr354428wac.1179935162931; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.61.19 with HTTP; Wed, 23 May 2007 08:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <890f9ce10705230846w14c4addcrc789b0138b5d7c8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:46:02 +0300 From: "=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Lauris_Buk=9Ais-Haberkorns?=" To: cldr-users@unicode.org Subject: Re: LV locale In-Reply-To: <30b660a20705230838h15310739q94fd9288544a56c0@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline References: <890f9ce10705211339l65ddf9f5ye1016458e6b8150@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20705211428x46fb740emf77dd6c93f7c9f24@mail.gmail.com> <890f9ce10705220316g15f6c8e4sba06baa54b832713@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20705230838h15310739q94fd9288544a56c0@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by unicode.org id l4NFk8w8019420 X-archive-position: 131 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: lafriks@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users Ok, I will try posting in forum but I don't think it will help as there are no messages in Latvian forum, so it's quite possible theres are not too much members active :) How much votes does it needs (for now there are two already)? Lauris On 5/23/07, Mark Davis wrote: > The first one was in CLDR 1.4, so with the normal process it stays in unless > there are enough votes to override it. You should post to the Latvian forum > the issue you have with it. If during the vetting period (which will be > starting soon) it does not get resolved by the Latvian vetters, you can make > the case to the committee. > > (This may seem cumbersome to you, but the committee doesn't have the > bandwidth to look at each and every item, so leaves it up to the vetters to > resolve the issues wherever possible.) > > mark > > > On 5/22/07, Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns wrote: > > I wanted to ask why in Latvian locale posix/​messages/​yesstr string > > "ājā:ja:j" is wining while it's grammatically incorrect. There should > > be "jā:ja:j". How much votes does the first one got? :) > > > > Lauris > > > > On 5/22/07, Mark Davis wrote: > > > Thanks for volunteering. You can get an account and contribute as > described > > > on http://unicode.org/cldr/survey_tool.html. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > On 5/21/07, Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns < lafriks@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I don't know if I'm writing to right list, sorry if I'm not :) I'm > > > > software developer and have quite good experience in translating > > > > software to Latvian language. I did quick review of > > > > http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/main/lv.xml > > > > There are some places I would like to mention. > > > > 1) in /ldml/delimiters - most usually we use double quotes, I think > > > > they should be primary not alternate. > > > > 2) I think eras abbreviations should be "p.m.ē." and "m.ē." > > > > 3) Date formats medium and short are completely wrong. Never seen in > > > > Latvia anyone using such formats. Can't find any reference at the > > > > moment but these should look something like " dd.MM.yyyy." and > > > > "d.M.yy." (not sure about the last one) > > > > 4) also yesstr is wrong it should be "jā:ja:j" (in Latvian "yes" is > "jā") > > > > > > > > I would like to help out in updating Latvian locale if help is needed. > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > Lauris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Mark > > > > > > -- > > Lafriks =) > > > > > > > > > > -- > Mark -- Lafriks =) From lafriks@gmail.com Wed May 23 13:03:48 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Wed, 23 May 2007 13:03:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com (ug-out-1314.google.com [66.249.92.171]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4NI3e8J007992 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 13:03:45 -0500 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id m3so226206uge for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:03:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=eWi477PCizicoQgM2KIj3ysufcbnaG7cnSfef8KKD5vF5YKtiKrDOqEHVd23vcSCfxJjueg69tWcVVTB1bF75wyz/B7hAlvAbvWeI899le9r3GrCtRG5fl6d1DRurE/G/6idok5/7WB1KFzomX7T5cWkL11w5VJjFx9uMpubO5o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=beak/Rmv1vOlePGDnFPzIPZiSgn+5uXPP6FAW2baZ2M2GLu6VQjZQ1YRPtmJbD7lByA2k65oxpmP42emBjKESboOfAriHhe4SnSxS9m5N36ULuqxTneuM7kYbLUeqkLXuo09XdNEtqx7q6BeWnVLYuwyK4ofTNa4l3CICmllcYk= Received: by 10.115.32.1 with SMTP id k1mr418062waj.1179943411999; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.61.19 with HTTP; Wed, 23 May 2007 11:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <890f9ce10705231103v6140706x432045fa8e5af40a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 21:03:31 +0300 From: "=?WINDOWS-1252?Q?Lauris_Buk=9Ais-Haberkorns?=" To: cldr-users@unicode.org Subject: Re: LV locale In-Reply-To: <890f9ce10705230846w14c4addcrc789b0138b5d7c8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline References: <890f9ce10705211339l65ddf9f5ye1016458e6b8150@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20705211428x46fb740emf77dd6c93f7c9f24@mail.gmail.com> <890f9ce10705220316g15f6c8e4sba06baa54b832713@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20705230838h15310739q94fd9288544a56c0@mail.gmail.com> <890f9ce10705230846w14c4addcrc789b0138b5d7c8@mail.gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by unicode.org id l4NI3e8J007992 X-archive-position: 132 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: lafriks@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: cldr-users@unicode.org X-list: cldr-users Is there anything else I can do? Lauris On 5/23/07, Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns wrote: > Ok, I will try posting in forum but I don't think it will help as > there are no messages in Latvian forum, so it's quite possible theres > are not too much members active :) How much votes does it needs (for > now there are two already)? > > Lauris > > On 5/23/07, Mark Davis wrote: > > The first one was in CLDR 1.4, so with the normal process it stays in unless > > there are enough votes to override it. You should post to the Latvian forum > > the issue you have with it. If during the vetting period (which will be > > starting soon) it does not get resolved by the Latvian vetters, you can make > > the case to the committee. > > > > (This may seem cumbersome to you, but the committee doesn't have the > > bandwidth to look at each and every item, so leaves it up to the vetters to > > resolve the issues wherever possible.) > > > > mark > > > > > > On 5/22/07, Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns wrote: > > > I wanted to ask why in Latvian locale posix/​messages/​yesstr string > > > "ājā:ja:j" is wining while it's grammatically incorrect. There should > > > be "jā:ja:j". How much votes does the first one got? :) > > > > > > Lauris > > > > > > On 5/22/07, Mark Davis wrote: > > > > Thanks for volunteering. You can get an account and contribute as > > described > > > > on http://unicode.org/cldr/survey_tool.html. > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/21/07, Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns < lafriks@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > I don't know if I'm writing to right list, sorry if I'm not :) I'm > > > > > software developer and have quite good experience in translating > > > > > software to Latvian language. I did quick review of > > > > > http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/main/lv.xml > > > > > There are some places I would like to mention. > > > > > 1) in /ldml/delimiters - most usually we use double quotes, I think > > > > > they should be primary not alternate. > > > > > 2) I think eras abbreviations should be "p.m.ē." and "m.ē." > > > > > 3) Date formats medium and short are completely wrong. Never seen in > > > > > Latvia anyone using such formats. Can't find any reference at the > > > > > moment but these should look something like " dd.MM.yyyy." and > > > > > "d.M.yy." (not sure about the last one) > > > > > 4) also yesstr is wrong it should be "jā:ja:j" (in Latvian "yes" is > > "jā") > > > > > > > > > > I would like to help out in updating Latvian locale if help is needed. > > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > Lauris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Lafriks =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Mark > > > -- > Lafriks =) > -- Lafriks =) From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Wed May 23 14:34:31 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list cldr-users); Wed, 23 May 2007 14:34:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com (nz-out-0506.google.com [64.233.162.226]) by unicode.org (8.13.4/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l4NJYU4j004863 for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 14:34:31 -0500 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f1so323627nzc for ; Wed, 23 May 2007 12:34:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:re