From mark@kli.org Fri Sep 5 08:21:00 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 05 Sep 2003 08:21:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pi.meson.org (h-66-134-26-207.NYCMNY83.covad.net [66.134.26.207]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h85CL0s12799 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:21:00 -0400 Received: (qmail 3960 invoked from network); 5 Sep 2003 12:20:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO kli.org) (@192.168.1.101) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 5 Sep 2003 12:20:50 -0000 Message-ID: <3F587FAA.3030400@kli.org> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 08:20:58 -0400 From: "Mark E. Shoulson" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.3.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 374 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: mark@kli.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew (this list has been awfully quiet lately, unless it's something with my mail...) I apologize for what I may be asking, as it may indicate only my ignorance about computer typesetting. I was thinking about the one "true" ligature we have for Hebrew (and not Yiddish), the alef-lamed, U+FB4F. With all the fuss about multiple vowel points in Yerushalayim, wouldn't that be a problem, I thought, for the alef-lamed? It has to be able to take two points, one for each letter. Then I found out that ligatures can take one anchor-point per class *per element*, so alef-lamed (AL) will have anchor points for the alef and the lamed separately, so that's okay. AL+segol+qamats would have the segol under the lamed (on the right side of underneath the glyph) and a qamats under the left part, under where the alef would be, or however the designer arranged it, and that's good. But then I tried playing around with it, in possibly the most common occurrence of AL, in the word "Elohim". The alef takes a hataf-segol, and the lamed a holam haser. The ligature has two anchor-points for "underneath" vowels (one per element) and two for the holam (in case the alef had a holam). The trouble is that since the alef has a holam anchor-point, the holam would wind up on the alef, since it's the first mark of that class of anchor, and not the lamed (using the sequence AL+hatafsegol+holam). I couldn't figure out how to get the holam to be the second holam, as it were; it's as if I needed an invisible place-holder holam. The usual invisible glyphs are mostly base characters, so that wouldn't do; the holam would then go on that and not the lamed. I hope/assume there's a solution to this--otherwise we have to think of one (inventing an "invisible holam" and corresponding "invisible (lower) nikud" is, I think, not a good plan, since we would theoretically need one for every possible anchor class for all ligatures, and that's font-dependent). Thanks. ~mark From peterkirk@qaya.org Fri Sep 5 13:33:12 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 05 Sep 2003 13:33:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pmbx.net (mail.pmbx.net [198.78.101.198]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h85HXCs01353 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:33:12 -0400 Received: from [213.162.124.237] (account prkirk HELO qaya.org) by pmbx.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.3) with ESMTP-TLS id 7676222; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 13:32:03 -0400 Message-ID: <3F58C8D0.40206@qaya.org> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 10:33:04 -0700 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Mark E. Shoulson" CC: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud References: <3F587FAA.3030400@kli.org> In-Reply-To: <3F587FAA.3030400@kli.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 375 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 05/09/2003 05:20, Mark E. Shoulson wrote: > (this list has been awfully quiet lately, unless it's something with > my mail...) Maybe it's beause I have been busy with other things :-) . But some of those other things will soon generate traffic for this list, so don't unsubscribe yet... > > > I apologize for what I may be asking, as it may indicate only my > ignorance about computer typesetting. I am also fairly ignorant about that, but will try to answer this from the Unicode perspective. > > > I was thinking about the one "true" ligature we have for Hebrew (and > not Yiddish), the alef-lamed, U+FB4F. With all the fuss about > multiple vowel points in Yerushalayim, wouldn't that be a problem, I > thought, for the alef-lamed? It has to be able to take two points, > one for each letter. Then I found out that ligatures can take one > anchor-point per class *per element*, so alef-lamed (AL) will have > anchor points for the alef and the lamed separately, so that's okay. > AL+segol+qamats would have the segol under the lamed (on the right > side of underneath the glyph) and a qamats under the left part, under > where the alef would be, or however the designer arranged it, and > that's good. From the Unicode perspective, I don't think you should attempt to encode texts using U+FB4F with vowel points or any other combining marks. This character is defined as an alphabetic presentation form and so is not really intended for use in texts. I don't think Unicode defines how combining marks should be arranged around it. Don't forget also that sequences of vowels are likely to be reordered during normalisation, so that you cannot make a distinction between AL+segol+qamats and AL+qamats+segol. So it looks to me as if you should encode your sequence as something like and rely on the rendering engine to take the ZWJ as a signal to use the ligature glyph, if there is one, and to arrange the points around it appropriately. Or is your question more to do with how to set up a font so that the rendering engine does that? That is a separate question and one which I will leave others to answer. And it is something which depends on the font and so is not standardised in Unicode. -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ From tiro@tiro.com Fri Sep 5 15:23:47 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:23:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.uniserve.ca (portal.uniserve.ca [216.113.192.66]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h85JNks12281 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:23:46 -0400 Received: from sec2d18.dial.uniserve.ca ([204.244.165.81] helo=Sophia.tiro.com) by portal.uniserve.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 19vMBA-0007hU-00; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 12:23:33 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> X-Sender: tiro@pop3.portal.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 12:23:29 -0700 To: "Mark E. Shoulson" From: John Hudson Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud Cc: hebrew@unicode.org, Ralph Hancock In-Reply-To: <3F587FAA.3030400@kli.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 376 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew At 05:20 AM 9/5/2003, Mark E. Shoulson wrote: >I was thinking about the one "true" ligature we have for Hebrew (and not >Yiddish), the alef-lamed, U+FB4F. With all the fuss about multiple vowel >points in Yerushalayim, wouldn't that be a problem, I thought, for the >alef-lamed? It has to be able to take two points, one for each >letter. Then I found out that ligatures can take one anchor-point per >class *per element*, so alef-lamed (AL) will have anchor points for the >alef and the lamed separately, so that's okay. AL+segol+qamats would have >the segol under the lamed (on the right side of underneath the glyph) and >a qamats under the left part, under where the alef would be, or however >the designer arranged it, and that's good. > >But then I tried playing around with it, in possibly the most common >occurrence of AL, in the word "Elohim". The alef takes a hataf-segol, and >the lamed a holam haser. The ligature has two anchor-points for >"underneath" vowels (one per element) and two for the holam (in case the >alef had a holam). The trouble is that since the alef has a holam >anchor-point, the holam would wind up on the alef, since it's the first >mark of that class of anchor, and not the lamed (using the sequence >AL+hatafsegol+holam). I couldn't figure out how to get the holam to be >the second holam, as it were; it's as if I needed an invisible >place-holder holam. The usual invisible glyphs are mostly base >characters, so that wouldn't do; the holam would then go on that and not >the lamed. > >I hope/assume there's a solution to this--otherwise we have to think of >one (inventing an "invisible holam" and corresponding "invisible (lower) >nikud" is, I think, not a good plan, since we would theoretically need one >for every possible anchor class for all ligatures, and that's font-dependent). OpenType Layout services keep track of the relationship of marks relative to base characters, and apply them to components (elements) in a ligature based on the relationship between each component and the base character it represents. Note that this only works if the ligature is treated as a glyph substitution: if you encode the alef_lam ligature using the Unicode presentation form codepoint, this will not work, because OpenType Layout services will see only one base character, not two. This is how it works: The ligature substitution lookup ignores glyphs classified as marks (glyphs are classified in the font GDEF table as simple, mark, ligature, or component). This means that any number of vowels or accents can be inserted between the alef and the lam and the ligature will still form. Because we don't want the alef_lam ligature to form every time this sequence of letters occurs, we require an explicit ligation request using ZWJ: alef ZWJ lam -> alef_lam The alef_lam ligature is classified as such in the GDEF table (note that ligatures do not need to be classified unless marks are going to be applied to individual elements), and is recorded as having 2 components (it is not necessary to classify the components as such). GPOS anchor point positioning lookups record separate positioning for marks on each component of the ligature. If you want to place a holam on the alef, you encode it as If you want to place a holam on the lam, you encode it as Now, you would do me a huge favour if you could provide me with images of the alef_lam showing correct mark positioning for the typical marks applied to this ligature. Ideally, I would need these today, as I need to finalise the SBL Hebrew font because they want to ship it on the 15th. To be honest, I had not considered this issue until you raised it, because the BHS text in use by my clients does not include the alef_lam ligature. If it is not possible to get the images to me today, the first version of the font may need to ship without proper support for mark positioning on alef_lam, but I would add it for the first update. John Hudson Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com You need a good operator to make type. If it were a DIY affair the caster would only run for about five minutes before the DIYer burned his butt off. - Jim Rimmer From mark@kli.org Fri Sep 5 18:47:40 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pi.meson.org (h-66-134-26-207.NYCMNY83.covad.net [66.134.26.207]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h85MlJs17834 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:47:39 -0400 Received: (qmail 5339 invoked from network); 5 Sep 2003 22:46:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO kli.org) (@192.168.1.101) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 5 Sep 2003 22:46:46 -0000 Message-ID: <3F591258.7000901@kli.org> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:46:48 -0400 From: "Mark E. Shoulson" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Hudson CC: hebrew@unicode.org, Ralph Hancock Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.3.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------080600050900030107060504" X-archive-position: 377 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: mark@kli.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080600050900030107060504 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Hudson wrote: > At 05:20 AM 9/5/2003, Mark E. Shoulson wrote: > >> (lots of misguided stuff about ligatures...) > > > OpenType Layout services keep track of the relationship of marks > relative to base characters, and apply them to components (elements) > in a ligature based on the relationship between each component and the > base character it represents. Note that this only works if the > ligature is treated as a glyph substitution: if you encode the > alef_lam ligature using the Unicode presentation form codepoint, this > will not work, because OpenType Layout services will see only one base > character, not two. > > This is how it works: OK, I gotcha. Peter Kirk said essentially the same thing. I mustn't think of it as "AL plus two marks", it's "Alef (and its attendants) plus Lamed (and its attendants)" which the font/rendering engine cleverly decides should be an AL, appropriately decorated. I just had the wrong model in mind. > Now, you would do me a huge favour if you could provide me with images > of the alef_lam showing correct mark positioning for the typical marks > applied to this ligature. Ideally, I would need these today, as I need > to finalise the SBL Hebrew font because they want to ship it on the > 15th. To be honest, I had not considered this issue until you raised > it, because the BHS text in use by my clients does not include the > alef_lam ligature. If it is not possible to get the images to me > today, the first version of the font may need to ship without proper > support for mark positioning on alef_lam, but I would add it for the > first update. I am most honored and flattered to be of service, with my meager typography senses. I'm attaching a file, with a AL from some font and boxes for the two places for the "downstairs" nekudot and the two holam spots, approximately shown, according to what sortakinda seems right to me. The lamed-holam should, naturally, have the same relationship to the AL as it does to the lamed (usually pushed rather over to the left, which I suspect as the origin of the "holam on the right side of an alef" thingy, as the word "lo" lamed-holam-alef is extremely common). ~mark --------------080600050900030107060504 Content-Type: image/gif; name="AL.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="AL.gif" R0lGODlhIgHWAeMAALSytJSRQQAAAHNxc4OBg5aVlllXWVRTVGdmZ6SipP////////////// /////////ywAAAAAIgHWAQAE/hDISau9OOsdtv9gKI5kaZ6ngK4s2rVwLM90rdZ4/OZ87/+m G3Do2RGPyKRMqFQam9Co9MKcAp/WrHZY3eaw3rAY1h3LwOa0+lNer9DuuLwtL8Hr+DE9H7rz /1Z7gByDhV6Chhd+iYw/iI0Ti5CTNI+TkpSZLZaQmJqfQaAYnqKlbKYVpKirFpyNqqyxAK6M sLKrtIm2t6a5hru8or6FwMGfw4PFxpnIgMrLk81/z9CN0nzU1YnXednahdx43t+A4XXj5Hzm cujpeOtx7e5zsvLzbvBu9vdq+Wv7/Mz4UwMwoJiBaQoaPFRvIa6GDntBjChsIsVjFi8yy6gx GseO/tY+gtwmciS4kibLoUypbiXLdy5f0oulUCaXmDbXIDRTM6ePnWN6+uQBVIzQoTiKhjmK 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from portal.uniserve.ca (portal.uniserve.ca [216.113.192.66]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h85Mwfs17953 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 18:58:41 -0400 Received: from sec2d8.dial.uniserve.ca ([204.244.165.71] helo=Sophia.tiro.com) by portal.uniserve.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 19vPXE-000Mxo-00; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:58:33 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> X-Sender: tiro@pop3.portal.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 15:58:28 -0700 To: "Mark E. Shoulson" From: John Hudson Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud Cc: hebrew@unicode.org, Ralph Hancock In-Reply-To: <3F591258.7000901@kli.org> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 378 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew At 03:46 PM 9/5/2003, Mark E. Shoulson wrote: >I am most honored and flattered to be of service, with my meager >typography senses. I'm attaching a file, with a AL from some font and >boxes for the two places for the "downstairs" nekudot and the two holam >spots, approximately shown, according to what sortakinda seems right to >me. The lamed-holam should, naturally, have the same relationship to the >AL as it does to the lamed (usually pushed rather over to the left, which >I suspect as the origin of the "holam on the right side of an alef" >thingy, as the word "lo" lamed-holam-alef is extremely common). Thanks. Are cantillation/accent marks ever applied to alef_lam? I'm wondering whether I can get away with lookups for below nikud and holam only, or if I need to consider multiple marks on a single component. It could get pretty complicated, with not much room to manoeuvre! [I *could* force the ligation to fail if something other than below nikud or holam is inserted between the component characters, but this wouldn't be good if someone really needed to display alef_lam with cantillation.] John Hudson Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com You need a good operator to make type. If it were a DIY affair the caster would only run for about five minutes before the DIYer burned his butt off. - Jim Rimmer From peterkirk@qaya.org Fri Sep 5 21:20:04 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 05 Sep 2003 21:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pmbx.net (mail.pmbx.net [198.78.101.198]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h861Jfs21558 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:20:03 -0400 Received: from [213.162.124.237] (account prkirk HELO qaya.org) by pmbx.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.3) with ESMTP-TLS id 7683052; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 19:16:56 -0400 Message-ID: <3F5919A3.3030500@qaya.org> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 16:17:55 -0700 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Hudson CC: "Mark E. Shoulson" , hebrew@unicode.org, Ralph Hancock Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 379 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 05/09/2003 15:58, John Hudson wrote: > > Thanks. Are cantillation/accent marks ever applied to alef_lam? I'm > wondering whether I can get away with lookups for below nikud and > holam only, or if I need to consider multiple marks on a single > component. It could get pretty complicated, with not much room to > manoeuvre! Not normally as accents apart from meteg are not normally used with non-biblical text. But you should support meteg. One thing to remember is that on any one word there is usually only one accent and almost never two accents on neighbouring syllables. But you have already had to deal with two accents on one base character for the Ten Commandments (haven't you?), and you should be able to use the same principles to get two accents on to the alef-lamed ligature. You shouldn't ever need more than that. -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ From tiro@tiro.com Fri Sep 5 21:43:45 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 05 Sep 2003 21:43:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.uniserve.ca (portal.uniserve.ca [216.113.192.66]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h861his30496 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:43:44 -0400 Received: from sec1d20.dial.uniserve.ca ([204.244.165.35] helo=Sophia.tiro.com) by portal.uniserve.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 19vS6z-000K4J-00; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:43:37 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905183234.02ab4250@pop3.portal.ca> X-Sender: tiro@pop3.portal.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:43:31 -0700 To: Peter Kirk From: John Hudson Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud Cc: "Mark E. Shoulson" , hebrew@unicode.org, Ralph Hancock In-Reply-To: <3F5919A3.3030500@qaya.org> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 380 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew At 04:17 PM 9/5/2003, Peter Kirk wrote: >>Thanks. Are cantillation/accent marks ever applied to alef_lam? I'm >>wondering whether I can get away with lookups for below nikud and holam >>only, or if I need to consider multiple marks on a single component. It >>could get pretty complicated, with not much room to manoeuvre! > >Not normally as accents apart from meteg are not normally used with >non-biblical text. But you should support meteg. Thanks. [By the way, I meant lamed, not lam: don't mean to get my semitic scripts confused.] >One thing to remember is that on any one word there is usually only one >accent and almost never two accents on neighbouring syllables. But you >have already had to deal with two accents on one base character for the >Ten Commandments (haven't you?), and you should be able to use the same >principles to get two accents on to the alef-lamed ligature. You shouldn't >ever need more than that. Well, I can use the same principles, but getting all the mark positioning sorted for individual consonants requires a lot of lookups, and mark-to-ligature positioning requires a different lookup, so I don't really want to double the number of mark positioning lookups in the font for one very little used ligature. I think, for now, I'll limit myself to the nikud, including holam, and meteg. John Hudson Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com You need a good operator to make type. If it were a DIY affair the caster would only run for about five minutes before the DIYer burned his butt off. - Jim Rimmer From tiro@tiro.com Fri Sep 5 21:47:58 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 05 Sep 2003 21:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.uniserve.ca (portal.uniserve.ca [216.113.192.66]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h861lcs30549 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 2003 21:47:58 -0400 Received: from sec1d20.dial.uniserve.ca ([204.244.165.35] helo=Sophia.tiro.com) by portal.uniserve.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 19vSAD-000KPo-00; Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:46:58 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905184445.02dd7bc8@pop3.portal.ca> X-Sender: tiro@pop3.portal.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 18:46:52 -0700 To: Peter Kirk , "Mark E. Shoulson" , hebrew@unicode.org, Ralph Hancock From: John Hudson Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905183234.02ab4250@pop3.portal.ca> References: <3F5919A3.3030500@qaya.org> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 381 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On the subject of Hebrew ligatures and marks, am I correct in thinking that I don't need to worry about positioning marks for individual components of the Yiddish vav_vav, vav_yod and yod_yod combinations? John Hudson Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com You need a good operator to make type. If it were a DIY affair the caster would only run for about five minutes before the DIYer burned his butt off. - Jim Rimmer From bertrandlaidain@mac.com Sat Sep 6 17:02:27 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 06 Sep 2003 17:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.87]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h86L2Rs29412 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 17:02:27 -0400 Received: from mac.com (smtpin07-en2 [10.13.10.152]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h86L2O5u013431; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com (aph-aug-102-1-4-172.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.11.70.172]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/8.12.9/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h86L2Hwq000747; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 23:02:16 +0200 Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=Apple-Mail-3-823073908 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: hebrew@unicode.org To: John Hudson From: Bertrand Laidain In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905184445.02dd7bc8@pop3.portal.ca> Message-Id: <65218898-E0AD-11D7-AB82-0005024973A6@mac.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) X-archive-position: 382 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: bertrandlaidain@mac.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew --Apple-Mail-3-823073908 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed In Yiddish yod_yod (tsvey yudn) could have a patah (it become pasekh tsvey yudn) and thats the only case in your list which a mark is added, but it's rather common in Yiddish. For the Alef lamed, it could have nikud but since it is not used to typeset Tanakh there is no need to add teamim. Bertrand PS Two example of Alef lamed with nikud --Apple-Mail-3-823073908 Content-Disposition: inline; filename=aleflamed01.jpg Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: image/jpeg; x-mac-creator=3842494D; x-unix-mode=0644; x-mac-type=4A504547; name="aleflamed01.jpg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgAAZABkAAD/7AARRHVja3kAAQAEAAAACgAA/+4ADkFkb2JlAGTAAAAAAf/b AIQAFBAQGRIZJxcXJzImHyYyLiYmJiYuPjU1NTU1PkRBQUFBQUFERERERERERERERERERERERERE RERERERERERERAEVGRkgHCAmGBgmNiYgJjZENisrNkREREI1QkRERERERERERERERERERERERERE RERERERERERERERERERERERE/8AAEQgBCgGQAwEiAAIRAQMRAf/EAIYAAQADAQEBAQAAAAAAAAAA AAAFBgcEAwIBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAABAwIEAwUDBQsLBQEAAAABABECAwQhMRIFQWEG UYGRIhNxoTKxQlKyFPDB0XKCkiNzNBUW4fFiwuIzk6NUZDWi0lODRCQRAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAD/2gAMAwEAAhEDEQA/ALmiIgIiICIiAiIgIiICIiAiIgIiICIiAiIgIiICIiAiIgIiICIiAiIg IiICIiAiIgLihu1nUn6UK1MyLMBMYvgAO08hjl2hR/VN+LSxlAFqlX9HEYZfOz4acH4EhZsg2ZFw bTuEdxtYXAbUQ0wOEhnxPtD4sQu9AREQEREBERAREQEREBERAREQEREBERAREQEREBERAREQEREB 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c5Bwoonwz5XYpY8uMyia8gU8YUZ2UURWocAmj0QJMbKKLNahhJyxSyBidQsFFFIvuc1MmSQhIwDk cFFFeUGHJLJiEskTCT2KcyEXZlFFX6QPJ7MpwNHUUVESbAOfopEawbNyUUVd1eBrEURE5G4ZRRSA zDsK80NfBlFEh//Z --Apple-Mail-3-823073908 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Le samedi, 6 sep 2003, =E0 03:46 Europe/Paris, John Hudson a =E9crit : > On the subject of Hebrew ligatures and marks, am I correct in thinking=20= > that I don't need to worry about positioning marks for individual=20 > components of the Yiddish vav_vav, vav_yod and yod_yod combinations? > > John Hudson > > Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com > Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com > > You need a good operator to make type. If it were a > DIY affair the caster would only run for about five > minutes before the DIYer burned his butt off. > - Jim Rimmer > > --Apple-Mail-3-823073908-- From bertrandlaidain@mac.com Sat Sep 6 17:36:40 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 06 Sep 2003 17:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (smtpout.mac.com [17.250.248.87]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h86Lads29798 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 17:36:39 -0400 Received: from mac.com (smtpin07-en2 [10.13.10.152]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h86Laa5u024693; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com (aph-aug-102-1-4-172.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.11.70.172]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/8.12.9/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h86LaPwq005911; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 14:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2003 23:36:21 +0200 Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: hebrew@unicode.org To: John Hudson From: Bertrand Laidain In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> Message-Id: <28439122-E0B2-11D7-AB82-0005024973A6@mac.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id h86Lads29798 X-archive-position: 383 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: bertrandlaidain@mac.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Le vendredi, 5 sep 2003, à 21:23 Europe/Paris, John Hudson a écrit : > The ligature substitution lookup ignores glyphs classified as marks > (glyphs are classified in the font GDEF table as simple, mark, > ligature, or component). This means that any number of vowels or > accents can be inserted between the alef and the lam and the ligature > will still form. Because we don't want the alef_lam ligature to form > every time this sequence of letters occurs, we require an explicit > ligation request using ZWJ: > alef ZWJ lam -> alef_lam > > The alef_lam ligature is classified as such in the GDEF table (note > that ligatures do not need to be classified unless marks are going to > be applied to individual elements), and is recorded as having 2 > components (it is not necessary to classify the components as such). > GPOS anchor point positioning lookups record separate positioning for > marks on each component of the ligature. > > If you want to place a holam on the alef, you encode it as > > > If you want to place a holam on the lam, you encode it as > In your example you add a holam to the alef lamed ligature, but the difficult case is since the ligature is the contraction of two letters and each letter has a mark when you display it as one letter it's like to have one letter (alef lamed) with TWO nikud not just holam ! And I had this problem in InDesign, In InDesign I cannot use with ZWJ I use which is perfect for me. But if I type Alef, hataf segol, lamed holam it doesn't work (in that particular case). I suppose that want the sequence alef, lamed without nothing between. So I type Alef, lamed, hataf segol, holam, and that's working for me. Bertrand From tiro@tiro.com Sat Sep 6 18:55:41 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.uniserve.ca (portal.uniserve.ca [216.113.192.66]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h86Mtfs03943 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 18:55:41 -0400 Received: from sec1d4.dial.uniserve.ca ([204.244.165.19] helo=Sophia.tiro.com) by portal.uniserve.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 19vlxs-000FEb-00; Sat, 06 Sep 2003 15:55:33 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.1.20030906155216.011ca838@pop3.portal.ca> X-Sender: tiro@pop3.portal.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 15:55:29 -0700 To: Bertrand Laidain From: John Hudson Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud Cc: hebrew@unicode.org In-Reply-To: <28439122-E0B2-11D7-AB82-0005024973A6@mac.com> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 384 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew At 02:36 PM 9/6/2003, Bertrand Laidain wrote: >In your example you add a holam to the alef lamed ligature, but the >difficult case is since the ligature is the contraction of two letters and >each letter has a mark when you display it as one letter it's like to have >one letter (alef lamed) with TWO nikud not just holam ! > >And I had this problem in InDesign, In InDesign I cannot use with >ZWJ I use which is perfect for me. > >But if I type Alef, hataf segol, lamed holam it doesn't work (in that >particular case). I suppose that want the sequence alef, lamed >without nothing between. If you set your alef_lamed ligature substution not to process any marks, the ligation will happen regardless of whether there are marks inserted, and InDesign ME should be able to handle this (it does so for Arabic ligatures). >So I type Alef, lamed, hataf segol, holam, and that's working for me. But then you can't control the positioning of the marks relative to different parts of the ligature. John Hudson Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com You need a good operator to make type. If it were a DIY affair the caster would only run for about five minutes before the DIYer burned his butt off. - Jim Rimmer From tiro@tiro.com Sat Sep 6 18:58:37 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 06 Sep 2003 18:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from portal.uniserve.ca (portal.uniserve.ca [216.113.192.66]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h86Mwbs03985 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 18:58:37 -0400 Received: from sec1d4.dial.uniserve.ca ([204.244.165.19] helo=Sophia.tiro.com) by portal.uniserve.ca with esmtp (Exim 4.05) id 19vm0l-000FaS-00; Sat, 06 Sep 2003 15:58:32 -0700 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.1.20030906155533.02af7928@pop3.portal.ca> X-Sender: tiro@pop3.portal.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 15:58:28 -0700 To: Bertrand Laidain From: John Hudson Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud Cc: hebrew@unicode.org In-Reply-To: <65218898-E0AD-11D7-AB82-0005024973A6@mac.com> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905184445.02dd7bc8@pop3.portal.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 385 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew At 02:02 PM 9/6/2003, Bertrand Laidain wrote: >In Yiddish yod_yod (tsvey yudn) could have a patah (it become pasekh tsvey >yudn) and thats the only case in your list which a mark is added, but it's >rather common in Yiddish. That's that I thought, but in this case the patah is applied to the whole ligature, not to individual parts as in Mark's alef_lamed example. I have a special glyph in my font to handle this, with a longer patah that stretches beneath both yods. How is this commonly encoded for Yiddish? Do people use the presentation form codepoints, or do they encode ? >PS Two example of Alef lamed with nikud Thanks. John Hudson Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com You need a good operator to make type. If it were a DIY affair the caster would only run for about five minutes before the DIYer burned his butt off. - Jim Rimmer From bertrandlaidain@mac.com Sat Sep 6 20:09:48 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 06 Sep 2003 20:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-86.apple.com [17.250.248.86]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h8709ls15610 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:09:47 -0400 Received: from mac.com (smtpin08-en2 [10.13.10.153]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h8709jKx024790; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 17:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com (aph-aug-102-1-4-87.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.11.70.87]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/8.12.9/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h8709glc003484; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 17:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 02:09:41 +0200 Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: hebrew@unicode.org To: John Hudson From: Bertrand Laidain In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030906155533.02af7928@pop3.portal.ca> Message-Id: <93D018FE-E0C7-11D7-AB82-0005024973A6@mac.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id h8709ls15610 X-archive-position: 386 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: bertrandlaidain@mac.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Le dimanche, 7 sep 2003, à 00:58 Europe/Paris, John Hudson a écrit : > At 02:02 PM 9/6/2003, Bertrand Laidain wrote: > >> In Yiddish yod_yod (tsvey yudn) could have a patah (it become pasekh >> tsvey yudn) and thats the only case in your list which a mark is >> added, but it's rather common in Yiddish. > > That's that I thought, but in this case the patah is applied to the > whole ligature, not to individual parts as in Mark's alef_lamed > example. I have a special glyph in my font to handle this, with a > longer patah that stretches beneath both yods. > > How is this commonly encoded for Yiddish? Do people use the > presentation form codepoints, or do they encode ? In my experience, on Windows Yiddish users type yod-yod followed by a patah (05F2+05B7) and on Macintosh we directly type yod-yod-patah in one stroke (F1BF)... that was the cause of lots of problems... (seems solved by OS X though) Bertrand From bertrandlaidain@mac.com Sat Sep 6 20:12:16 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 06 Sep 2003 20:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpout.mac.com (A17-250-248-85.apple.com [17.250.248.85]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h870CGs16142 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:12:16 -0400 Received: from mac.com (smtpin07-en2 [10.13.10.152]) by smtpout.mac.com (Xserve/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h870CE0O008086; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 17:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mac.com (aph-aug-102-1-4-87.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr [80.11.70.87]) (authenticated bits=0) by mac.com (Xserve/8.12.9/MantshX 2.0) with ESMTP id h870C8wq000229; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 17:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 02:11:59 +0200 Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v552) Cc: hebrew@unicode.org To: John Hudson From: Bertrand Laidain In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030906155216.011ca838@pop3.portal.ca> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.552) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id h870CGs16142 X-archive-position: 387 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: bertrandlaidain@mac.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Le dimanche, 7 sep 2003, à 00:55 Europe/Paris, John Hudson a écrit : > At 02:36 PM 9/6/2003, Bertrand Laidain wrote: > >> In your example you add a holam to the alef lamed ligature, but the >> difficult case is since the ligature is the contraction of two >> letters and each letter has a mark when you display it as one letter >> it's like to have one letter (alef lamed) with TWO nikud not just >> holam ! >> >> And I had this problem in InDesign, In InDesign I cannot use >> with ZWJ I use which is perfect for me. >> >> But if I type Alef, hataf segol, lamed holam it doesn't work (in that >> particular case). I suppose that want the sequence alef, lamed >> without nothing between. > > If you set your alef_lamed ligature substution not to process any > marks, the ligation will happen regardless of whether there are marks > inserted, and InDesign ME should be able to handle this (it does so > for Arabic ligatures). How to set this ? >> So I type Alef, lamed, hataf segol, holam, and that's working for me. > > But then you can't control the positioning of the marks relative to > different parts of the ligature. You're right... Bertrand From mark@kli.org Sat Sep 6 20:43:13 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 06 Sep 2003 20:43:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pi.meson.org (h-66-134-26-207.NYCMNY83.covad.net [66.134.26.207]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h870hDs22696 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:43:13 -0400 Received: (qmail 11724 invoked from network); 7 Sep 2003 00:43:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO kli.org) (@192.168.1.101) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 7 Sep 2003 00:43:08 -0000 Message-ID: <3F5A7F23.70000@kli.org> Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 20:43:15 -0400 From: "Mark E. Shoulson" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Hudson CC: hebrew@unicode.org, Ralph Hancock Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.3.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 388 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: mark@kli.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew John Hudson wrote: > Thanks. Are cantillation/accent marks ever applied to alef_lam? I'm > wondering whether I can get away with lookups for below nikud and > holam only, or if I need to consider multiple marks on a single > component. It could get pretty complicated, with not much room to > manoeuvre! [I *could* force the ligation to fail if something other > than below nikud or holam is inserted between the component > characters, but this wouldn't be good if someone really needed to > display alef_lam with cantillation.] In theory, yes; in practice, not really. The alef_lam is actually a pretty rare bird, and getting rarer with modern printing. It was mainly used as a kludge to save a bit of space by printers in earlier times, near as I can tell. I doubt one would typeset Biblical text (with cantillations) with alef_lam (I guess that would also run counter to the preservation of the precise consonantal text, too). Making it work with cantillations would prove you're an astoundingly complete and capable typographer... but possibly also a bit of a smart-alec. And it's unlikely to see practical use, in Hebrew anyway (did someone mention that Ladino uses it distinctively?) ~mark From mark@kli.org Sat Sep 6 20:50:15 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 06 Sep 2003 20:50:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pi.meson.org (h-66-134-26-207.NYCMNY83.covad.net [66.134.26.207]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h870oEs23244 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:50:15 -0400 Received: (qmail 11785 invoked from network); 7 Sep 2003 00:49:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO kli.org) (@192.168.1.101) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 7 Sep 2003 00:49:42 -0000 Message-ID: <3F5A80AD.30001@kli.org> Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 20:49:49 -0400 From: "Mark E. Shoulson" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Hudson CC: Peter Kirk , hebrew@unicode.org, Ralph Hancock Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud References: <3F5919A3.3030500@qaya.org> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905184445.02dd7bc8@pop3.portal.ca> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905184445.02dd7bc8@pop3.portal.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.3.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 389 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: mark@kli.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew You are correct. Yiddish only uses diacritical marks for vowels in the form of patach- and qamatz-alef, patach-double-yod, and the occasional hiriq-yod and shuruq-vav when needed to disambiguate. vav-yod and yod-yod are themselves vowels (well, diphthongs), and vav-vav is a simple consonant. I once saw a rather strange bit of Yiddish written with usual Yiddish spelling, but also the Hebrew vowel-points as if to produce the same result (presumably to help out Hebrew readers unfamiliar with Yiddish). So the letter *before* ayin would have a segol, patach and qamatz *preceded* the alef (since they're sounded on the letter before, right?) and vav-yod would have a holam on the vav. But this is really strange and non-standard; someone who wanted to do that could easily use the non-ligated vav+yod, and/or markup. It's not something you need to support, I'd think. ~mark John Hudson wrote: > On the subject of Hebrew ligatures and marks, am I correct in thinking > that I don't need to worry about positioning marks for individual > components of the Yiddish vav_vav, vav_yod and yod_yod combinations? > > John Hudson From tiro@tiro.com Sat Sep 6 23:49:06 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 06 Sep 2003 23:49:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h873mjs26682 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 23:49:06 -0400 Received: from Sophia.tiro.com ([154.5.118.184]) by priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030907034807.TSJN10012.priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net@Sophia.tiro.com>; Sat, 6 Sep 2003 21:48:07 -0600 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.1.20030906203501.02bc0cc8@pop3.portal.ca> X-Sender: tiro@pop3.portal.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 20:48:04 -0700 To: Bertrand Laidain From: John Hudson Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud Cc: hebrew@unicode.org In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030906155216.011ca838@pop3.portal.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 390 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew At 05:11 PM 9/6/2003, Bertrand Laidain wrote: >>If you set your alef_lamed ligature substution not to process any marks, >>the ligation will happen regardless of whether there are marks inserted, >>and InDesign ME should be able to handle this (it does so for Arabic >>ligatures). > >How to set this ? I'm not sure if the rest of the list is interested in this or not, but in case someone other than Bertrand wants to know, here is how to set ligature substitution lookups to ignore some or all marks. First, in the VOLT Glyph Edit window you need to make sure that all combining marks are classified as 'Marks'. You've probably done this already if you have mark attachment positioning in your font. In the VOLT ligature subsitution lookup there is a box near the top of the lookup window labelled 'Process Marks:'. The permitted contents of this box are 'ALL' (default), 'NONE', or the name of a Glyph Group containing one or more marks (and only marks). If you enter 'NONE' in this box, the ligature substitution will ignore any marks that occur in the glyph run when applying the lookup. If you enter the name of a Glyph Group, only marks in that group will be ignored. [For my alef_lamed lookup, I made a Glyph Group that included all non-vowel marks except meteg. So my ligature will be substituted for if a vowel or meteg is entered after the alef, but not if any other mark is entered.] John Hudson Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com You need a good operator to make type. If it were a DIY affair the caster would only run for about five minutes before the DIYer burned his butt off. - Jim Rimmer From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Sun Sep 7 01:29:23 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 07 Sep 2003 01:29:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h875TMs10125 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 01:29:23 -0400 Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19vs6z-0000hk-00; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 01:29:21 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 01:29:21 -0400 To: "Mark E. Shoulson" Cc: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud Message-ID: <20030907052921.GJ4437@mercury.ccil.org> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> <3F5A7F23.70000@kli.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3F5A7F23.70000@kli.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan X-archive-position: 391 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: cowan@mercury.ccil.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Mark E. Shoulson scripsit: > In theory, yes; in practice, not really. The alef_lam is actually a > pretty rare bird, and getting rarer with modern printing. It was mainly > used as a kludge to save a bit of space by printers in earlier times, > near as I can tell. Surely it must exist because of the influence of the corresponding Arabic ligature, which is mandatory? -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan "You cannot enter here. Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!" --Gandalf From tiro@tiro.com Sun Sep 7 02:12:16 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 07 Sep 2003 02:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h876CGa17201 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 02:12:16 -0400 Received: from Sophia.tiro.com ([154.5.118.184]) by priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030907061210.VWVT10012.priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net@Sophia.tiro.com>; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 00:12:10 -0600 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.1.20030906231120.02bafb60@pop3.portal.ca> X-Sender: tiro@pop3.portal.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 23:12:07 -0700 To: John Cowan From: John Hudson Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud Cc: "Mark E. Shoulson" , hebrew@unicode.org In-Reply-To: <20030907052921.GJ4437@mercury.ccil.org> References: <3F5A7F23.70000@kli.org> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> <3F5A7F23.70000@kli.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 392 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew At 10:29 PM 9/6/2003, John Cowan wrote: > > In theory, yes; in practice, not really. The alef_lam is actually a > > pretty rare bird, and getting rarer with modern printing. It was mainly > > used as a kludge to save a bit of space by printers in earlier times, > > near as I can tell. > >Surely it must exist because of the influence of the corresponding >Arabic ligature, which is mandatory? The mandatory Arabic ligature is Lam_Alif, not Alif_Lam. John Hudson Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com You need a good operator to make type. If it were a DIY affair the caster would only run for about five minutes before the DIYer burned his butt off. - Jim Rimmer From cowan@mercury.ccil.org Sun Sep 7 11:43:41 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 07 Sep 2003 11:43:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mercury.ccil.org (mercury.ccil.org [192.190.237.100]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h87Fhfa03024 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:43:41 -0400 Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19w1hQ-00066C-00; Sun, 07 Sep 2003 11:43:36 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 11:43:36 -0400 To: John Hudson Cc: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Alef-Lamed ligature and nikud Message-ID: <20030907154336.GA16623@mercury.ccil.org> References: <3F5A7F23.70000@kli.org> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> <3F5A7F23.70000@kli.org> <5.2.1.1.1.20030906231120.02bafb60@pop3.portal.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030906231120.02bafb60@pop3.portal.ca> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i From: John Cowan X-archive-position: 393 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: cowan@mercury.ccil.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew John Hudson scripsit: > >Surely it must exist because of the influence of the corresponding > >Arabic ligature, which is mandatory? > > The mandatory Arabic ligature is Lam_Alif, not Alif_Lam. Ooops (slaps head). -- John Cowan www.ccil.org/~cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com Monday we watch-a Firefly's house, but he no come out. He wasn't home. Tuesday we go to the ball game, but he fool us. He no show up. Wednesday he go to the ball game, and we fool him. We no show up. Thursday was a double-header. Nobody show up. Friday it rained all day. There was no ball game, so we stayed home and we listened to it on-a the radio. --Chicolini From tiro@tiro.com Sun Sep 7 22:54:21 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 07 Sep 2003 22:54:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from priv-edtnes44.telusplanet.net (outbound05.telus.net [199.185.220.224]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h882sLa19463 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 22:54:21 -0400 Received: from Sophia.tiro.com ([154.5.118.184]) by priv-edtnes44.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.5.01.05.17 201-253-122-126-117-20021021) with ESMTP id <20030908025415.OCGM26386.priv-edtnes44.telusplanet.net@Sophia.tiro.com> for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:54:15 -0600 Message-Id: <5.2.1.1.1.20030907194924.02c86b00@pop3.portal.ca> X-Sender: tiro@pop3.portal.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 19:54:12 -0700 To: hebrew@unicode.org From: John Hudson Subject: [hebrew] Traditional vowel/cantillation order In-Reply-To: <3F5A7F23.70000@kli.org> References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-archive-position: 394 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew If presenting a list of Hebrew vowels, what is the traditional order? I've found a number of different listings, some of which sort short and long vowels separately, others which mix them. Also, is there a traditional order for listing the cantillation/accent marks? The reason I ask is that I am building a keyboard driver for Biblical Hebrew, and most of the layout for the marks is based on relative position of marks to consonants, e.g. marks that are positioned at the upper left of a consonant are found in the upper left of the keyboard. Within this system, though, I'm trying to figure out the best way to order marks in groups. For instance, all my below vowels are in a line of keys, and I'm wondering how best to order them from right-to-left across the keyboard. John Hudson Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com You need a good operator to make type. If it were a DIY affair the caster would only run for about five minutes before the DIYer burned his butt off. - Jim Rimmer From mark@kli.org Sun Sep 7 23:36:44 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 07 Sep 2003 23:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pi.meson.org (h-66-134-26-207.NYCMNY83.covad.net [66.134.26.207]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id h883aia22792 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 2003 23:36:44 -0400 Received: (qmail 16468 invoked from network); 8 Sep 2003 03:36:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO kli.org) (@192.168.1.101) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 8 Sep 2003 03:36:34 -0000 Message-ID: <3F5BF940.80008@kli.org> Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 23:36:32 -0400 From: "Mark E. Shoulson" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Hudson CC: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Traditional vowel/cantillation order References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030907194924.02c86b00@pop3.portal.ca> In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030907194924.02c86b00@pop3.portal.ca> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.3.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 395 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: mark@kli.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew John Hudson wrote: > If presenting a list of Hebrew vowels, what is the traditional order? > I've found a number of different listings, some of which sort short > and long vowels separately, others which mix them. I don't know of a particular order for the vowels--which isn't to say there isn't one. I think as a kid you tend to learn the ones that sound alike (in Modern Hebrew) together: patah and qamats, segol and tsere, etc. But that's neither here nor there. > Also, is there a traditional order for listing the cantillation/accent > marks? There is a common presentation of them in the front of many Bibles, which has a distinctive order. It's not unvarying; there are differences between the traditions (ashkenaz, yemenite, etc) and even within one there are variants. It also doesn't necessarily have each accent only once... It's how a lot of people learn them, though (even though they're not *quite* in a sensible order, per the inferred rules of cantillation organization). Let's see if I can streamline one that I know for you: zarqa munah segol (munah) legarmehh revia mahapakh pashta zaqef-qatan zaqef-gadol mercha tipeha etnahta pazer telisha-qetana telisha-gedola qadma geresh gershayim darga tevir yetiv (paseq) siluq Sorry if it's kind of messy. legarmehh is an accent composed of munah (U+04A3) and then a line after the word (U+05C0 -- the same line as used for paseq. I believe Elaine Keown at one point proposed that there be a separate codepoint for this, which may be worth pursuing: there's no way to know contextually whether it's a munah followed by paseq or a munah legarmehh, and that can make a difference when doing computational work on the cantillations). And don't forget that zarqa is really U+05AE, due to the names being mixed up. No clue about an analog for the poetic set, though; you're on your own. > The reason I ask is that I am building a keyboard driver for Biblical > Hebrew, and most of the layout for the marks is based on relative > position of marks to consonants, e.g. marks that are positioned at the > upper left of a consonant are found in the upper left of the keyboard. > Within this system, though, I'm trying to figure out the best way to > order marks in groups. For instance, all my below vowels are in a line > of keys, and I'm wondering how best to order them from right-to-left > across the keyboard. Maybe by frequency? Hmm, somewhere recently I ran across a keyboard file for a Hebrew keyboard with vowels on the number keys... where did I leave that? Can't find it, but look at http://webcenter.ru/~kazarn/eng/semit.htm which describes what is probably standard. Good luck... ~mark From matial@il.ibm.com Mon Sep 8 04:34:58 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Mon, 08 Sep 2003 04:34:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com [194.196.100.234]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h888Yva09999 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 04:34:57 -0400 Received: from d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.180]) by d12lmsgate.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h888YcMD061244; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:34:46 +0200 Received: from d10ml002.telaviv.ibm.com (d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.228]) by d12relay01.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.6) with ESMTP id h888YUK9212392; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:34:30 +0200 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Sensitivity: To: John Hudson Cc: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Traditional vowel/cantillation order X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.10 March 22, 2002 From: "Matitiahu Allouche" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:34:28 +0300 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D10ML002/10/M/IBM(Release 5.0.9a |January 7, 2002) at 08/09/2003 11:34:30, Serialize complete at 08/09/2003 11:34:30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-archive-position: 396 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: matial@il.ibm.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew As far as I know, there is no universally accepted ordering for Hebrew vowels. If I am not mistaken, the order of vowels in Unicode was copied after CP 1255, and I don't know how Microsoft determined the order of vowels in CP 1255, but this is as good an order as any, so why invent a new one? If you don't have a compelling reason to invent a new keyboard mapping for Hebrew vowels, why not adopt the same as implemented in Microsoft Windows? There is nothing holy in it, but on the other hand the less different mappings we have for the same purpose, the better. It is the reason why SII (the Israeli National Bureau of standards) has codified as an Israeli standard the keyboard mapping for Hebrew vowels implemented in Windows. So you have two valuable examples to follow. Shalom (Regards), Mati Bidi Architect Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional Scripts IBM Israel Phone: +972 2 5888802 Fax: +972 2 5870333 Mobile: +972 52 554160 Sent by: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org To: hebrew@unicode.org cc: Subject: [hebrew] Traditional vowel/cantillation order If presenting a list of Hebrew vowels, what is the traditional order? I've found a number of different listings, some of which sort short and long vowels separately, others which mix them. Also, is there a traditional order for listing the cantillation/accent marks? The reason I ask is that I am building a keyboard driver for Biblical Hebrew, and most of the layout for the marks is based on relative position of marks to consonants, e.g. marks that are positioned at the upper left of a consonant are found in the upper left of the keyboard. Within this system, though, I'm trying to figure out the best way to order marks in groups. For instance, all my below vowels are in a line of keys, and I'm wondering how best to order them from right-to-left across the keyboard. John Hudson Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com You need a good operator to make type. If it were a DIY affair the caster would only run for about five minutes before the DIYer burned his butt off. - Jim Rimmer From peterkirk@qaya.org Mon Sep 8 05:41:25 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Mon, 08 Sep 2003 05:41:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns3.eukhost.com ([64.5.60.201]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h889fPa24305 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 05:41:25 -0400 Received: from [213.162.124.237] (helo=qaya.org) by ns3.eukhost.com with asmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19wIWO-0001Rz-4E; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 10:41:20 +0100 Message-ID: <3F5C4EBE.8060107@qaya.org> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 02:41:18 -0700 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matitiahu Allouche CC: John Hudson , hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Traditional vowel/cantillation order References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ns3.eukhost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - unicode.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - qaya.org X-archive-position: 397 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 08/09/2003 01:34, Matitiahu Allouche wrote: >As far as I know, there is no universally accepted ordering for Hebrew >vowels. If I am not mistaken, the order of vowels in Unicode was copied >after CP 1255, and I don't know how Microsoft determined the order of >vowels in CP 1255, but this is as good an order as any, so why invent a >new one? > >If you don't have a compelling reason to invent a new keyboard mapping for >Hebrew vowels, why not adopt the same as implemented in Microsoft Windows? > There is nothing holy in it, but on the other hand the less different >mappings we have for the same purpose, the better. It is the reason why >SII (the Israeli National Bureau of standards) has codified as an Israeli >standard the keyboard mapping for Hebrew vowels implemented in Windows. So >you have two valuable examples to follow. > >Shalom (Regards), Mati > Bidi Architect > Globalization Center Of Competency - Bidirectional Scripts > IBM Israel > Phone: +972 2 5888802 Fax: +972 2 5870333 Mobile: +972 52 >554160 > The problem here as I understand it is that this standard keyboard, while good for consonants, is EXTREMELY inconvenient for typing vowel points, and doesn't support accents at all. -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ From peterkirk@qaya.org Mon Sep 8 06:19:04 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Mon, 08 Sep 2003 06:19:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns3.eukhost.com ([64.5.60.201]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h88AIia28875 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 06:19:04 -0400 Received: from [213.162.124.237] (helo=qaya.org) by ns3.eukhost.com with asmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19wJ62-0002wV-NQ; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 11:18:10 +0100 Message-ID: <3F5C5760.9020507@qaya.org> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 03:18:08 -0700 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Mark E. Shoulson" CC: John Hudson , hebrew@unicode.org, Bearpecs@aol.com, Elaine Keown Subject: [hebrew] Re: Traditional vowel/cantillation order References: <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905120632.03169bd8@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030905155414.01129938@pop3.portal.ca> <5.2.1.1.1.20030907194924.02c86b00@pop3.portal.ca> <3F5BF940.80008@kli.org> In-Reply-To: <3F5BF940.80008@kli.org> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------020907090900000600090005" X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - ns3.eukhost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - unicode.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - qaya.org X-archive-position: 398 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020907090900000600090005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 07/09/2003 20:36, Mark E. Shoulson wrote: > John Hudson wrote: > >> If presenting a list of Hebrew vowels, what is the traditional order? >> I've found a number of different listings, some of which sort short >> and long vowels separately, others which mix them. > > > I don't know of a particular order for the vowels--which isn't to say > there isn't one. I think as a kid you tend to learn the ones that > sound alike (in Modern Hebrew) together: patah and qamats, segol and > tsere, etc. But that's neither here nor there. There may be a different tradition among western scholars of biblical Hebrew - which is relevant because the target audience of John's work stands mostly in this tradition. Gesenius describes thm in the following order (names changed to Unicode one): qamats, patah, segol, hiriq, tsere, qubuts, holam, sheva, hataf patah, hataf segol, hataf qamats BDB and Strong both list them in the following order: qamats, patah, hataf patah, tsere, segol, hataf segol, sheva, hiriq, holam, hataf qamats, qubuts Harris-Archer-Waltke list: patah, qamats, hiriq, segol, tsere, holam, qubuts, sheva, hataf patah, hataf segol, hataf qamats Lambdin's list is the same except that it reverses segol and tsere. So I can only agree that there is no standard. In that case the best thing, it seems to me, is to go with the order of the Unicode code points, which is also canonised and immortalised in the combining classes and not so immortalised in the default collation table. > > >> Also, is there a traditional order for listing the >> cantillation/accent marks? > > > There is a common presentation of them in the front of many Bibles, > which has a distinctive order. It's not unvarying; there are > differences between the traditions (ashkenaz, yemenite, etc) and even > within one there are variants. It also doesn't necessarily have each > accent only once... It's how a lot of people learn them, though (even > though they're not *quite* in a sensible order, per the inferred rules > of cantillation organization). Let's see if I can streamline one that > I know for you: > > zarqa munah segol (munah) legarmehh revia mahapakh pashta zaqef-qatan > zaqef-gadol mercha tipeha etnahta pazer telisha-qetana telisha-gedola > qadma geresh gershayim darga tevir yetiv (paseq) siluq > > Sorry if it's kind of messy. legarmehh is an accent composed of munah > (U+04A3) and then a line after the word (U+05C0 -- the same line as > used for paseq. I believe Elaine Keown at one point proposed that > there be a separate codepoint for this, which may be worth pursuing: > there's no way to know contextually whether it's a munah followed by > paseq or a munah legarmehh, and that can make a difference when doing > computational work on the cantillations). And don't forget that zarqa > is really U+05AE, due to the names being mixed up. > > No clue about an analog for the poetic set, though; you're on your own. Gesenius has a list which is also on the insert card of BHS and is broadly based on the hierarchy of the accents i.e. starting siluq, etnahta, segol, shalshelet... and is also the basis of the ordering of the Unicode code points although some of them have got out of order. > > >> The reason I ask is that I am building a keyboard driver for Biblical >> Hebrew, and most of the layout for the marks is based on relative >> position of marks to consonants, e.g. marks that are positioned at >> the upper left of a consonant are found in the upper left of the >> keyboard. Within this system, though, I'm trying to figure out the >> best way to order marks in groups. For instance, all my below vowels >> are in a line of keys, and I'm wondering how best to order them from >> right-to-left across the keyboard. > Are you basing your layout on the Israeli layout of the consonants or on a transliteration of the western QWERTY layout? The latter is much more convenient for western users who don't have Hebrew letters on their physical keyboards. In the latter case you of course have vowel keys to use, so no need for a special layout. There is a layout of this kind available with the SIL Unicode Hebrew font, including codes for accents. I use a simple one based on shift for consonants with dagesh, alt for final forms, shift for long vowels, alt for hataf vowels. If you want to classify accents by shape and positioning rather than by use, you may like to refer to the attached file of documentation for the eBHS, also to Helmut Richter's useful tables and graphics at http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~hr/teamim/tables.html (but his interpretation is less helpful). > > Maybe by frequency? Hmm, somewhere recently I ran across a keyboard > file for a Hebrew keyboard with vowels on the number keys... where did > I leave that? Can't find it, but look at > http://webcenter.ru/~kazarn/eng/semit.htm which describes what is > probably standard. > > Good luck... > > ~mark > > > > > -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ --------------020907090900000600090005 Content-Type: text/plain; name="supplmt.wts" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="supplmt.wts" SUPPLEMENT TO THE CODE MANUAL FOR THE MICHIGAN OLD TESTAMENT by Alan Groves Westminster Theological Seminary Philadelphia, PA 19118 Last Revised 6/7/89 PLEASE RETURN ALL CORRECTIONS TO ALAN GROVES AT THE ABOVE ADDRESS. THANK YOU. 1. Introduction This document is a supplement to "Code Manual for the Michigan Old Testament". Knowledge of that document is presupposed at all points which follow. "MCMOT" will be used to indicate references to the Michigan manual in the following material. 1.1 This supplement is a result of our work to verify the Michigan text of BHS. This verification work was done by a team at Westminster Seminary under the direction of Alan Groves and Emanuel Tov (Hebrew University). The text, as it now exists, is no longer precisely the text of BHS (1983 edition). We have suggested readings of L that differ from those made by the editors of BHS. (See 2.5 and the final explanation below for a discussion of how we have done this.) 1.2 The present machine-readable text of the Michigan-Claremont version of the text of BHS has been verified by means of a computer aided comparison with an the following machine- readable texts: 1.2.1 An independently encoded text from the Abbaye de Maredsous 1.2.2 An independently proofread version of the M-C text from Bar Ilan University. 1.3 Moreover, verification of certain features (e.g. position of cantillation within each word) was done automatically by means of software written for that purpose. 1.4 For suspected problems with the printed text of BHS (1983 edition), we appealed to the two other published versions of the Codex Leningradensis: 1.4.1 "The Holy Scriptures" edited by Aron Dotan (Adi, Tel Aviv, 1974) 1.4.2 BHK (Third edition) 1.5 At all points of variance between Dotan and BHS or BHS and BHK, we also examined the photo facsimiles of the codex (Codex Leningradensis b19A, D.S. Loewinger, Makor, Jerusalem, 1971.) 1.6 Two notes are important for further understanding our work: 1.6.1 The United Bible Society did not work from the Makor photo-facsimiles in producing BHS. Rather, they worked from a separate set of microfilm. Having now seen both photographic reproductions, we are convinced that Makor is clearer at almost all points of dispute. Certain features of the codex that are invisible on the microfilm show up in the Makor photographs. We hope to publish an article concerning this. 1.6.2 Because some typographical errors in the 1977 edition have already been corrected in the 1983 edition, we used the latter as the basis of our proofreading. (The 1977 edition was the basis for the input). As a result, several of the ']' flags that were in earlier versions of the machine-readable text have been removed. 1.7 The results of our work therefore, are as follows: 1.7.1 A text that, we believe, improves on BHS in terms of reflecting the codex (Makor photofacsimile) 1.7.2 A text which is more accurate than other currently available machine-readable texts. 2. The current version of the text differs from the description given in the MCMOT as follows: 2.1 The logical record length is now variable (up to 80 characters). See MCMOT 2.1.2. 2.2 Unlike earlier versions of the database, each verse has the chapter number listed in its citation. (This is an exception to MCMOT 2.1.4.) The format conforms, however, to the CCAT format of ~x = chapter, ~y = verse etc. A "convbhs.com" has been included on the first diskette to present the text with clearer citations. See the "convbhs.doc" on the first diskette. 2.3 The second and third records of each file have been removed. These records listed the various ASCII characters used in the transliteration of the text. (This is an exception to MCMOT 2.1.3.) 2.4 The Ketib-Qere is as described in MCMOT 3.6 with the following exceptions: 2.4.1 Contrary to MCMOT 3.6.2, KQ involving only the first word of a compound joined by a maqqef will be done differently than is indicated in the manual. (The second example in MCMOT 3.6.2 is the issue here.) The maqqef always belongs to the Ketib, never the Qere. This will facilitate printing. 2.4.1.1 Ruth 4:6 becomes *LIG:)FWL-LI80Y **LIG:)FL 2.4.1.2 Also, note that Exodus 21:8 is ):A$ER-?*LO) (See Supplement 2.6 on '?') 2.4.2 The Ketib wela Qere is indicated by the unvocalized Ketib followed by **zz. The Qere wela Ketib is *zz followed by the Qere. (This represents a change to the statements at the end of the first paragraph of MCMOT 3.6.) 2.4.3 The user should note that we have not thoroughly verified the accuracy of the vocalization and cantillation of the KQ. 2.5 MCMOT 4.2 is no longer accurate. ']', and not '!', is used to mark deviations from BHS or to note other special features. In particular, we have expanded the coding to make the flagging procedure more precise by adding a single character or numeral following the bracket to indicate something special about the text. (For all the details, see the end of this supplement document entitled "Explanation of the Right-Hand Bracket".) The user should note that most of these notes have been stripped from this version. 2.5.1 The user should remember that we based our corrections on the 1983 edition of BHS. (See Supplement 1.6.2.) We do not retain a bracket where the 1983 edition has already made a correction to the 1977 edition. 2.6 The cantillation coding varies from that which is described in MCMOT 3.5 as follows: 2.6.1 Referring to the Tabula Accentuum which accompanies BHS, #10 in the Accentus Communes lists a second case for the occurrence of the pasta in tandem. Originally, the first mark was encoded as an 'azla ('63' in the Michigan format) and the second as a pasta ('03' in the Michigan format). We have made the first mark a '33'. Note that it is written after the letter not over it (unlike the 'azla). The coding of the pasta remains '03'. 2.7 A '?' is used to mark the physical end of the line as it appears in BHS. 2.7.1 A space will follow a '?' except where a maqqef ('-') ends a line in BHS. (e.g. Gn 1:2 W:HF)F81REC)? HFY:TF71H) 2.7.2 In that case, the '-?' will be followed by the next word without intervening space. (e.g. Gn 1:4 )ET-?HF)O71WR) 2.7.3 The '?' has not been verified systematically at this point. 2.8 We have adapted the premorphological encoding ('/') to reflect the citations in Even Shoshan's concordance. (We recognize that the concordance is based on the Koren edition of the Bible. However, the differences between the Koren text and BHS have no impact on this issue.) 2.8.1 One result is that there is a standard against which our work can be evaluated and that there is only one standard used. 2.8.2 This means that any supposed compound form that is listed as a separate entitiy under its compound form (as opposed to being listed solely under one or both components of the compound) is treated as a unit. In such cases no premorphological divider has been used. Listed below are the 6 exceptions to this rule. In each case the premorphological divider has been kept to indicate a prefix (a caret marks the place where the accent would most likely occur). 2.8.2.1 K.F/M.F^H 2.8.2.2 LF/K"^N 2.8.2.3 L:/PI^Y 2.8.2.4 LF^/M.FH 2.8.2.5 LI/P:N"^Y 2.8.2.6 MI/P:N"^Y 3. SPECIAL NOTE #1 The following items have not been verified as thoroughly as other items in the text: 3.1 The premorphological indicator '/' will be more comprehensively verified in the morphological verification yet to come. 3.2 The '?' which marks the physical end of the line in BHS has not been verified consistently. 3.3 The accuracy of the right-hand and left-hand cantillation markings require checking against the codex (i.e. 75 and 95 in the text.) 3.4 The vocalization of the ketiv-qere entries needs work. 4. SPECIAL NOTE #2 No matter how careful we have been, we have certainly left some errors. For example, any time that the encoding of Maredsous text was wrong in the same way as the M-C encoding, we are not likely to have picked up the error. (The probability of making the same error at the same place is not high. We know of only one case. The one case was uncovered by a scribe doing spot checks on a printed version of our proofread text (printed in Hebrew, fully vocalized and cantillated). In this way about 12% of the text was checked and only this one coincidence of error was observed.) While we believe remaining errors are minimal, some still exist. *********************************************************** *********************************************************** EXPLANATION OF THE RIGHT-HAND BRACKET ']*' (All bracketing has been done on the basis of the 1983 edition, not the 1977 edition. Moreover, the Makor edition of the codex was checked at all relevant points in determining the need for a flag.) ]1 BHS has been faithful to the Leningrad Codex where there might be a question of the validity of the form and we keep the same form as BHS. e.g. Deuteronomy 23:18 YI&RF)"L00]1 (missing silluq) ]2 We have added a sop pasuq where L and BHS omit it. ********** (Special note: Formerly this category had a much broader range and read as follows: "BHS has been faithful to the Codex where there might be a question of the validity of the form and we have abandoned BHS in order to code it differently." All situations other than missing sop pasuqs have now been made to conform to L and then labeled as ]1. ********** ]3 We read or understand L differently than BHS (1983 Edition). Often this notation indicates a typographical error in BHS. e.g. Genesis 6:22 ):ELOHI73YM]3 ]4 Puncta Extraordaria -- a 52 is used to mark such marks in the text when they are above the line and 53 when they are below the line. e.g. Genesis 18:9 )"52LF8052Y52W52]4 ]5 Large letter(s) ]6 Small letter(s) ]7 Suspended letter(s) ]8 Inverted Nun (N]8 in the text) ]9 BHS has abandoned L and we concur. All of these occurrences are ketib/qere problems. ]q We have abandoned or added a ketib/qere relative to BHS. In doing this we agree with L against BHS. e.g. Exodus 32:17 B.:/R:(O92H]q ]a Adaptations to a Qere which L and BHS, by their design, do not indicate. e.g. Exodus 4:2 **-Z.E74H]a ]y Yathir readings in L which we have designated as Qeres when both Dothan and BHS list a Qere. ]m Miscellaneous notes to the text and occasions where more than one bracket category applies. Guide to Transliteration Consonants Vowels Hebrew Michigan Hebrew Michigan Alef ) Patah A Bet B Qamets F Gimel G Segol E Dalet D Tsere " Heh H Hireq I Waw W Holem OW Zayin Z Qamets Het X Hatuf F Tet + Qibbuts U Yod Y Shureq W. Kaf K Shewa : Lamed L Hatef Mem M Patah :A Nun N Hatef Samek S Segol :E Peh P Hatef Ayin ( Qamets :F Tsade C Qof Q Miscellaneous Resh R Sin & Ketiv * Shin $ Qere ** Tav T Dagesh . Maqqef - HEBREW ACCENTS/CANTILLATION CODING (named and cross referenced as in the TABULA ACCENTUM insert card in BHS) Westminster Text TABULA ACCENTUM (BHS) At END (to left) of word and ABOVE 00 ; --- sop pasuq [end of verse] 01 .:--- segolta I.3 02 )--- zarqa, sinnor I.9,II.7 03 \--- pashta, azla legarmeh I.10a,II.12 04 &--- telisha parvum I.25 05 |--- paseq [separator] "Nota" - |-,-- legarmeh (74 + 05) I.18 At START (to right) of word and BELOW 10 ---< yetib (yetiv) I.11 13 ---\ dehi or tipha II.9 At START (to right) of word and ABOVE 11 ---/ (81 + ) mugrash II.5 14 ---% telisha magnum I.17 ABOVE word 24 -&-- telisha qetannah (med) - 33 --\- (with 03, left of letter) I.10(b) 44 -%-- telisha magnum (med) - 60 --<- ole or mahpakatum (II.2) 61 -/-- geresh or teres I.13 62 -"-- garshajim I.14 63 -\-- azla, azla or qadma I.24,II.19 64 -,-- illuj II.15 65 -#-- shalshelet (magn,parv) I.4,II.6+20 80 -:-- zaqep parvum I.5 81 -.-- rebia (magnum=parvum) I.7,II.4=8 82 --)- sinnorit II.21 83 -+-- pazer I.15,II.10 84 -&%-- pazer mag. or qarne para I.16 85 -|:-- zaqep magnum I.6 BELOW word 35 -F|:-- meteg (med) - 70 -<-- mahpak or mehuppak I.20,II.11+18 71 -/-- mereka I.21,II.14 72 -//-- mereka kepulah (duplex) I.22 73 -\-- tipha, tarha I.8,II.16 - --\-- majela [= 73] I.27 74 -,-- munah I.18-19,II.13 75 -|-- silluq [meteg (left)] I.1,II.1 91 -./-- tebir I.12 92 -^-- atnah I.2,II.3 93 -v-- galgal or jerah I.26,II.17 94 -s-- darga I.23 95 -|-- meteg (right) [cf 35,75] - --------------020907090900000600090005-- From peterkirk@qaya.org Mon Sep 8 10:34:09 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Mon, 08 Sep 2003 10:35:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns3.eukhost.com ([64.5.60.201]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h88EXCa21530 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:34:09 -0400 Received: from [213.162.124.237] (helo=qaya.org) by ns3.eukhost.com with asmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19wN4k-00073s-ES; Mon, 08 Sep 2003 15:33:06 +0100 Message-ID: <3F5C9322.3070603@qaya.org> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2003 07:33:06 -0700 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Biblical Hebrew , hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Prepositive accents repeated on th