From peterkirk@qaya.org Fri Mar 12 09:51:02 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:51:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.metronet.co.uk (mail.metronet.co.uk [213.162.97.75]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2CEp1o25673 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:51:01 -0500 Received: from qaya.org (unknown [213.162.124.237]) by mail.metronet.co.uk (MetroNet Mail) with ESMTP id 7FC6240D343; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 14:50:49 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4051CE53.1090105@qaya.org> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 06:50:59 -0800 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Grossman Cc: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Taamei Hamikra and vowels combined References: <000b01c3fa63$54546830$53d072c0@b199323> In-Reply-To: <000b01c3fa63$54546830$53d072c0@b199323> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1163 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 23/02/2004 15:16, David Grossman wrote: >Thank you, Peter. I'll try to explain the issues. > >1. Khaf Sofit with a dot in it and a kametz under it (but not Kaf at the end >of a word, which does not use the final form) can be very annoying. It needs >to be adjusted separately for each font. > >2. Yetiv (one of the taamim) comes before the word. However, it should not >"shove" the existing vowel out of the way. > >3. Random taamim, cholams and mapiks look OK in smaller typefaces, but awful >when enlarged. Either they slide around when the letter is enlarged, or else >the incorrect placement is not noticeable when small. > >4. The left dot on the Sin merges or nearly merges with the dot on a cholam >in certain cases. > >5. The Rafeh on top of some Yiddish letters merges with the letter or does >not appear at all. > >Those issues are at the top of my head at this moment. > >Since it is likely that nothing can be done about these quirks, there should >be an easy option to manually move these items. > >Peter, if I don't like the spacing of headline-size letters in standard >typefaces, then I can adjust the kerning. That kerning adjustment is built >into any decent word processor. It helps users move letters *horizontally*. > >Furthermore, if I don't like the height of any letter (especially in >formulas) I can adjust that height. I can also adjust the height with >numbered footnote markers. If I'm not mistaken, I can also make these >adjustments with HTML. Those adjustments help users move letters >*vertically*. > >The upshot is that users can move any character up, down, right, or left. > >I want to recommend that the technology that allows characters to be moved >in this way be expanded, so that users can do the same with nekudot and >taamim. > >Is this request doable? > >David Grossman > > > > > > >>It would probably be much faster to simply ask your questions and have >>someone summarize prior discussion; one thing this list has *not* been >>known for is succinct statements free of repetition. ;=) >> >> >> >>Peter Constable >> >> > > > > > > > David, I was looking back over this list and saw no response to the above. I think you were addressing Peter Constable, not myself, and maybe he answered you off list. It looks to me as if your questions 1-5 are specific to a particular font or set of fonts, at least within the OpenType architecture. If you find the fonts distributed by Microsoft inadequate in this area, you might prefer fonts developed independently, e.g. SBL Hebrew and Ezra SIL (version 2 recently released). Your issue about kerning and precise positioning of nekudot and taamim (points and accents, for those more familiar with this terminology) is most likely dependent on the application software. I would hope at least that a high quality publishing program would meet your requirements here. -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ From peterkirk@qaya.org Fri Mar 12 10:19:29 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:19:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.metronet.co.uk (mail.metronet.co.uk [213.162.97.75]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2CFJ6o30422 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 10:19:29 -0500 Received: from qaya.org (unknown [213.162.124.237]) by mail.metronet.co.uk (MetroNet Mail) with ESMTP id 44FA8415400; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:18:38 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4051D4D8.6090507@qaya.org> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:18:48 -0800 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hebrew@unicode.org Cc: Elaine Keown Subject: [hebrew] Hebrew items for June UTC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1164 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew There are already two Hebrew related items on the agenda for discussion at the UTC meeting on 15 June 2004: + Proposal to add two Masoretic punctuation marks to the BMP of the UCS (LOWER DOT and NUN HAFUKHA), http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2714.pdf. + Proposal to add ATNAH HAFUKH to the BMP of the UCS, http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2692.pdf. Your comments on these are welcome, although this list is not an official channel for comments. Meanwhile, there may be other Hebrew related items which might profitably be discussed and decided on by the UTC while they are considering Hebrew. I don't know of any more new characters to be proposed at the moment (as Elaine's proposals for additional marks and non-Tiberian pointing seem to be on hold for the moment), unless they arise from the following issues. But there are some matters on which a decision, or at least an indication of preference, from the UTC would help to ensure consistent encoding of Hebrew; also it seems that special uses of ZWJ and ZWNJ should be approved by the UTC: + Spelling of holam male (full holam), when this must be distinguished from : ; ; vav + a new character; or what? (This is the most urgent issue as it affects spelling of unaccented texts, and not only of the accented Hebrew Bible text.) + Distinction between left and right meteg: use CGJ to inhibit reordering; or a distinct character? + Distinction between medial and left meteg with hataf vowels: use ZWJ and ZWNJ? + Anything else? I propose drafting proposals on how these issues should be resolved for submission to the UTC for the June meeting - probably one proposal for holam male and another for meteg. I know what I want to propose for meteg. But I am still not sure for holam male. Any comments on what I propose doing? -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ From peterkirk@qaya.org Fri Mar 12 12:36:36 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:36:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.metronet.co.uk (mail.metronet.co.uk [213.162.97.75]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2CHaZd27979 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 12:36:35 -0500 Received: from qaya.org (unknown [213.162.124.237]) by mail.metronet.co.uk (MetroNet Mail) with ESMTP id A3B3C40C984; Fri, 12 Mar 2004 17:36:18 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4051F51E.7090303@qaya.org> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2004 09:36:30 -0800 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hebrew@unicode.org Cc: Elaine Keown Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC References: <4051D4D8.6090507@qaya.org> In-Reply-To: <4051D4D8.6090507@qaya.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1165 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 12/03/2004 07:18, Peter Kirk wrote: > ... > > Meanwhile, there may be other Hebrew related items which might > profitably be discussed and decided on by the UTC while they are > considering Hebrew. ... > > + Anything else? > > ... > One further issue which needs clarification: the distinction between tsinnor and tsinnorit, also between pashta and qadma/azla. -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ From Aktonin@paradise.net.nz Sat Mar 13 04:13:39 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 13 Mar 2004 04:13:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from linda-1.paradise.net.nz (bm-1a.paradise.net.nz [202.0.58.20]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2D9Ddd03554 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 04:13:39 -0500 Received: from smtp-3.paradise.net.nz (smtp-3b.paradise.net.nz [202.0.32.212]) by linda-1.paradise.net.nz (Paradise.net.nz) with ESMTP id <0HUI006YCCAPAG@linda-1.paradise.net.nz> for hebrew@unicode.org; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:13:37 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from MALIACHEEM (218-101-15-159.paradise.net.nz [218.101.15.159]) by smtp-3.paradise.net.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60246AE898 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:13:37 +1300 (NZDT) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:14:09 +1300 From: David Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC In-reply-to: <4051D4D8.6090507@qaya.org> To: hebrew@unicode.org Message-id: <000001c408db$8b795060$0100a8c0@MALIACHEEM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-archive-position: 1166 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: Aktonin@paradise.net.nz Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Hello, I'd just like to see vocal shewa and silent shewa added for tikun purposes. Thanks. From peterkirk@qaya.org Sat Mar 13 06:14:09 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 13 Mar 2004 06:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.metronet.co.uk (mail.metronet.co.uk [213.162.97.75]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2DBE9d27859 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 06:14:09 -0500 Received: from qaya.org (unknown [213.162.124.237]) by mail.metronet.co.uk (MetroNet Mail) with ESMTP id 66FAC40D548; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 11:13:58 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4052ECFC.80909@qaya.org> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 03:14:04 -0800 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Cc: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC References: <000001c408db$8b795060$0100a8c0@MALIACHEEM> In-Reply-To: <000001c408db$8b795060$0100a8c0@MALIACHEEM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1167 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 13/03/2004 01:14, David wrote: >Hello, > >I'd just like to see vocal shewa and silent shewa added for tikun >purposes. > >Thanks. > > > > This is an interesting issue. There are effectively two varieties of sheva with different pronunciations, and which need different transliterations. In most traditions they are graphically equivalent. Some publishers make a distinction between them, but as far as I am aware there is no standardised glyph distinction. The same applies to the two varieties of qamats. I see a good argument for making these distinctions visible in plain text, perhaps with a default ignorable character to make the distinction? But I think we may need to find evidence of some kind of standardisation of use across a range of publishers before we can make a case for new characters or new sequences. -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ From rosennej@qsm.co.il Sat Mar 13 12:37:40 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 13 Mar 2004 12:37:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx-out.daemonmail.net (mx-out.daemonmail.net [216.104.160.39]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2DHbed19122 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 12:37:40 -0500 Received: from localhost.daemonmail.net (localhost.daemonmail.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx-out.daemonmail.net (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA49570; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:37:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rosennej@qsm.co.il) Received: from [212.235.67.149] (via account qsm.co.il) by mx-out.daemonmail.net with ESMTP id RtC0xxI2 authenticated by POP; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 09:37:34 -0700 (PST) From: "Jony Rosenne" To: "'Peter Kirk'" , "'David'" Cc: Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:37:19 +0200 Message-ID: <000401c40921$d735bb10$0100000a@QSM4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 In-Reply-To: <4052ECFC.80909@qaya.org> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Importance: Normal X-archive-position: 1168 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: rosennej@qsm.co.il Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Same goes for the English letter s. Jony > -----Original Message----- > From: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org > [mailto:hebrew-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Peter Kirk > Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 1:14 PM > To: David > Cc: hebrew@unicode.org > Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC > > > On 13/03/2004 01:14, David wrote: > > >Hello, > > > >I'd just like to see vocal shewa and silent shewa added for tikun > >purposes. > > > >Thanks. > > > > > > > > > This is an interesting issue. There are effectively two varieties of > sheva with different pronunciations, and which need different > transliterations. In most traditions they are graphically equivalent. > Some publishers make a distinction between them, but as far as I am > aware there is no standardised glyph distinction. > > The same applies to the two varieties of qamats. > > I see a good argument for making these distinctions visible in plain > text, perhaps with a default ignorable character to make the > distinction? But I think we may need to find evidence of some kind of > standardisation of use across a range of publishers before we > can make a > case for new characters or new sequences. > > -- > Peter Kirk > peter@qaya.org (personal) > peterkirk@qaya.org (work) > http://www.qaya.org/ > > > > From mark@kli.org Sat Mar 13 23:09:25 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from pi.meson.org (h-66-134-26-207.nycmny83.covad.net [66.134.26.207]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id i2E49Od20746 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:09:24 -0500 Received: (qmail 10761 invoked from network); 14 Mar 2004 04:09:21 -0000 Received: from nagas.meson.org (HELO kli.org) (1000@192.168.1.101) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 14 Mar 2004 04:09:21 -0000 Message-ID: <4053DB96.8050800@kli.org> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:12:06 -0500 From: "Mark E. Shoulson" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Kirk CC: David , hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC References: <000001c408db$8b795060$0100a8c0@MALIACHEEM> <4052ECFC.80909@qaya.org> In-Reply-To: <4052ECFC.80909@qaya.org> X-Hebrew-Date: 21 Adar 5764 11:06pm (horae temporales) X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.3.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1169 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: mark@kli.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Yeah, the two shevas have been suggested before, and the qamats qatan/gadol distinction. But I'm inclined to think that Unicode made the right choice here in unifying them. When the Tiberian pointing was invented, there was one sheva and one qamats, and that's how they've been viewed, typographically, ever since. Sure, later grammarians saw distinct pronunciations of them, and even later typographers decided to make those distinctions visible, but it's still just a sheva or a qamats. Fine typographers may want to make that distinction, but it seems like a fancy-text kind of thing to me. Same goes for furtive patah. The rules for sheva and qamats are less typographically simple and obvious than furtive patah, true, but the point is the same. Besides, I think there are even differing opinions about sheva na` vs. nah, and what about the elusive sheva m'rahef? For that matter, there are also the three munahs (munah, m'kharbel, and illuy (not the same as U+05AC HEBREW ACCENT ILUY)) which one could argue should be encoded differently, but they never were printed so and should not be now. ~mark Peter Kirk wrote: > On 13/03/2004 01:14, David wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> I'd just like to see vocal shewa and silent shewa added for tikun >> purposes. >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> > This is an interesting issue. There are effectively two varieties of > sheva with different pronunciations, and which need different > transliterations. In most traditions they are graphically equivalent. > Some publishers make a distinction between them, but as far as I am > aware there is no standardised glyph distinction. > > The same applies to the two varieties of qamats. > > I see a good argument for making these distinctions visible in plain > text, perhaps with a default ignorable character to make the > distinction? But I think we may need to find evidence of some kind of > standardisation of use across a range of publishers before we can make > a case for new characters or new sequences. > From davidg@macam.ac.il Sat Mar 13 23:58:48 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:58:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.macam.ac.il (mail.mofet.macam98.ac.il [192.114.206.40]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2E4wld29553 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:58:47 -0500 Received: from mail.macam.ac.il (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.macam.ac.il (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2E4nqhG025819 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 06:49:52 +0200 Received: from b199323 (dailin138.dailin2.macam98.ac.il [192.114.208.138])by mail.macam.ac.il (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i2E4noaD025805for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 06:49:51 +0200 Message-ID: <01c201c40980$fd03e010$8ad072c0@b199323> From: "David Grossman" To: References: <000001c408db$8b795060$0100a8c0@MALIACHEEM> <4052ECFC.80909@qaya .org> Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 06:57:11 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-imss-version: 2.0 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scores: Clean:76.96539 C:17 M:1 S:5 R:5 X-imss-settings: Baseline:4 C:4 M:4 S:4 R:4 (0.1000 0.4000) X-archive-position: 1170 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: davidg@macam.ac.il Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew You won't find standardization here, since only the shewa itself is considered a vowel. The other distinctions are simply suggestions by publishers. However, this recommendation is indeed valid. Perhaps we can have *several* possibilities. After all, it certainly is important and valid for people, especially those who read the Torah, to be able to distinguish between Shewa Na and Shewa Nach -, and also to be able to identify a Kametz Katan, for that matter. David Grossman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Kirk" To: "David" Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 1:14 PM Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC > On 13/03/2004 01:14, David wrote: > > >Hello, > > > >I'd just like to see vocal shewa and silent shewa added for tikun > >purposes. > > > >Thanks. > > > > > > > > > This is an interesting issue. There are effectively two varieties of > sheva with different pronunciations, and which need different > transliterations. In most traditions they are graphically equivalent. > Some publishers make a distinction between them, but as far as I am > aware there is no standardised glyph distinction. > > The same applies to the two varieties of qamats. > > I see a good argument for making these distinctions visible in plain > text, perhaps with a default ignorable character to make the > distinction? But I think we may need to find evidence of some kind of > standardisation of use across a range of publishers before we can make a > case for new characters or new sequences. > > -- > Peter Kirk > peter@qaya.org (personal) > peterkirk@qaya.org (work) > http://www.qaya.org/ > From davidg@macam.ac.il Sun Mar 14 01:04:39 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 14 Mar 2004 01:04:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.macam.ac.il (mail.mofet.macam98.ac.il [192.114.206.40]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2E64cd02461 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 01:04:39 -0500 Received: from mail.macam.ac.il (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.macam.ac.il (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2E5thhG017939 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 07:55:43 +0200 Received: from b199323 (dailin138.dailin2.macam98.ac.il [192.114.208.138])by mail.macam.ac.il (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i2E5tgaD017917for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 07:55:43 +0200 Message-ID: <03aa01c4098a$30ce2690$8ad072c0@b199323> From: "David Grossman" To: References: <000b01c3fa63$54546830$53d072c0@b199323> <4051CE53.109010 5@qaya.org> Subject: [hebrew] Re: Taamei Hamikra and vowels combined Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:02:33 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-imss-version: 2.0 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scores: Clean:16.54700 C:20 M:1 S:5 R:5 X-imss-settings: Baseline:4 C:4 M:4 S:4 R:4 (0.1000 0.4000) X-archive-position: 1171 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: davidg@macam.ac.il Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew > Your issue about kerning and precise positioning of nekudot and taamim > (points and accents, for those more familiar with this terminology) is > most likely dependent on the application software. I would hope at least > that a high quality publishing program would meet your requirements here. > > -- > Peter Kirk Does anybody know about a high-quality publishing program that addresses these issues? David Grossman From tiro@tiro.com Sun Mar 14 02:20:23 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from Sophia (d66-183-160-160.bchsia.telus.net [66.183.160.160]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2E7KI820146 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 02:20:23 -0500 Received: from tiro.com ([66.183.160.160]) by Sophia with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.2600.1106); Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:19:32 -0800 Message-ID: <40540782.3080705@tiro.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 23:19:30 -0800 From: John Hudson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Grossman CC: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Taamei Hamikra and vowels combined References: <000b01c3fa63$54546830$53d072c0@b199323> <4051CE53.109010 5@qaya.org> <03aa01c4098a$30ce2690$8ad072c0@b199323> In-Reply-To: <03aa01c4098a$30ce2690$8ad072c0@b199323> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Mar 2004 07:19:32.0282 (UTC) FILETIME=[B234A1A0:01C40994] X-archive-position: 1172 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew David Grossman wrote: >>Your issue about kerning and precise positioning of nekudot and taamim >>(points and accents, for those more familiar with this terminology) is >>most likely dependent on the application software. I would hope at least >>that a high quality publishing program would meet your requirements here. > Does anybody know about a high-quality publishing program that addresses > these issues? The best professional page layout software I have found for Hebrew, which supports OpenType mark positioning, is the Mid-East (ME) version of Adobe InDesign. The current version, 2.0, has one important limitation with regard to Biblical Hebrew: it does not support contextual adjustment of mark positioning, so combinations of nikud + te'amin sometimes off-centre. Single mark positioning is very well supported, though, and I'm hopeful that this limitation will be removed in future versions. John Hudson -- Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com I often play against man, God says, but it is he who wants to lose, the idiot, and it is I who want him to win. And I succeed sometimes In making him win. - Charles Peguy From everson@evertype.com Sun Mar 14 06:31:27 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 14 Mar 2004 06:31:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from ni-mail2.dna.utvinternet.net (ni-mail2.dna.utvinternet.net [194.46.8.26]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2EBVR806526 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 06:31:27 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.2] (unverified [194.46.84.114]) by ni-mail2.dna.utvinternet.net (Vircom SMTPRS 3.0.282) with ESMTP id for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:31:20 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: evr001@mail.dna.ie Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000401c40921$d735bb10$0100000a@QSM4> References: <000401c40921$d735bb10$0100000a@QSM4> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:23:48 +0000 To: hebrew@unicode.org From: Michael Everson Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-archive-position: 1173 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: everson@evertype.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew At 19:37 +0200 2004-03-13, Jony Rosenne wrote: >Same goes for the English letter s. How so? -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com From rosennej@qsm.co.il Sun Mar 14 10:39:32 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:39:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx-out.daemonmail.net (mx-out.daemonmail.net [216.104.160.39]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2EFdW814530 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:39:32 -0500 Received: from localhost.daemonmail.net (localhost.daemonmail.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx-out.daemonmail.net (8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA03470 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 07:39:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rosennej@qsm.co.il) Received: from [212.235.26.120] (via account qsm.co.il) by mx-out.daemonmail.net with ESMTP id ut00MuD0 authenticated by POP; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 07:39:27 -0700 (PST) From: "Jony Rosenne" To: Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:39:12 +0200 Message-ID: <000601c409da$818f9e10$0401c80a@QSM4> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-archive-position: 1174 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: rosennej@qsm.co.il Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew "There are effectively two varieties of s with different pronunciations, and which need different transliterations. In most traditions they are graphically equivalent. " Jony > -----Original Message----- > From: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org > [mailto:hebrew-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Michael Everson > Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 1:24 PM > To: hebrew@unicode.org > Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC > > > At 19:37 +0200 2004-03-13, Jony Rosenne wrote: > >Same goes for the English letter s. > > How so? > -- > Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com > > > From everson@evertype.com Sun Mar 14 10:42:35 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ni-mail2.dna.utvinternet.net (ni-mail2.dna.utvinternet.net [194.46.8.26]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2EFgZ814669 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:42:35 -0500 Received: from [192.168.0.2] (unverified [194.46.85.127]) by ni-mail2.dna.utvinternet.net (Vircom SMTPRS 3.0.282) with ESMTP id for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 15:42:30 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: evr001@mail.dna.ie Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000601c409da$818f9e10$0401c80a@QSM4> References: <000601c409da$818f9e10$0401c80a@QSM4> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 15:42:25 +0000 To: From: Michael Everson Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-archive-position: 1175 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: everson@evertype.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew At 17:39 +0200 2004-03-14, Jony Rosenne wrote: >"There are effectively two varieties of s with different pronunciations, and >which need different transliterations. In most traditions they are >graphically equivalent. " In which traditions are they not? -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com From peterkirk@qaya.org Sun Mar 14 11:22:21 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:22:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.metronet.co.uk (mail.metronet.co.uk [213.162.97.75]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2EGMK816304 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:22:21 -0500 Received: from qaya.org (unknown [213.162.124.237]) by mail.metronet.co.uk (MetroNet Mail) with ESMTP id 9289E415CB3; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 16:22:04 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <405486B7.6060403@qaya.org> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 08:22:15 -0800 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Everson Cc: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC References: <000601c409da$818f9e10$0401c80a@QSM4> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1176 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 14/03/2004 07:42, Michael Everson wrote: > At 17:39 +0200 2004-03-14, Jony Rosenne wrote: > >> "There are effectively two varieties of s with different >> pronunciations, and >> which need different transliterations. In most traditions they are >> graphically equivalent. " > > > In which traditions are they not? Well, in IPA, and probably in some of the special teaching alphabets for English, and for these purposes there are specific Unicode characters already defined for the two alternatives. Well, in this case one of the alternatives is simply z, so it isn't a good example; a better one would be English u which in IPA can be u or inverted v or maybe various other letters all of which are in Unicode. If such variant Latin orthographies for English are supported by Unicode, there is a good argument for varying Hebrew script orthographies for Hebrew, at least if they can be shown to be used for interchange and not only by individual publishers. But the situation is unfortunately a bit too like the various alternative dictionary representations of the English th sound recently discussed on the main Unicode list. -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ From davidg@macam.ac.il Sun Mar 14 17:41:46 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.macam.ac.il (mail.mofet.macam98.ac.il [192.114.206.40]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2EMfj811621 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:41:46 -0500 Received: from mail.macam.ac.il (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.macam.ac.il (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2EMWhhG003054 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:32:43 +0200 Received: from b199323 (dailin51.dailin2.macam98.ac.il [192.114.208.51])by m ail.macam.ac.il (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i2EMWfaD003047for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:32:42 +0200 Message-ID: <026601c40a15$77bb96b0$33d072c0@b199323> From: "David Grossman" To: References: <000b01c3fa63$54546830$53d072c0@b199323> <4051CE53.10901 0 5@qaya.org> <03aa01c4098a$30ce2690$8ad072c0@b199323> <40540782.3080705@ti ro.com> Subject: [hebrew] Re: Taamei Hamikra and vowels combined Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 00:41:12 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-imss-version: 2.0 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scores: Clean:47.42691 C:20 M:1 S:5 R:5 X-imss-settings: Baseline:4 C:4 M:4 S:4 R:4 (0.1000 0.4000) X-archive-position: 1177 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: davidg@macam.ac.il Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew In other words, as of today, we don't have a viable software solution, and we don't have a Unicode solution. Apparently the Unicode people are expecting the software people to find a solution, and the software people are expecting Unicode to come up with a solution. The Hebrew Computing group concluded that there is no viable software solution. John Hudson confirmed this on this Unicode group. I therefore return to my original query: Is there a way that Unicode can be modified or developed in order to meet these advanced and exacting Hebrew demands? David Grossman ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hudson" To: "David Grossman" Cc: Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 9:19 AM Subject: Re: [hebrew] Re: Taamei Hamikra and vowels combined > David Grossman wrote: > >>Your issue about kerning and precise positioning of nekudot and taamim > >>(points and accents, for those more familiar with this terminology) is > >>most likely dependent on the application software. I would hope at least > >>that a high quality publishing program would meet your requirements here. > > > Does anybody know about a high-quality publishing program that addresses > > these issues? > > The best professional page layout software I have found for Hebrew, which supports > OpenType mark positioning, is the Mid-East (ME) version of Adobe InDesign. The current > version, 2.0, has one important limitation with regard to Biblical Hebrew: it does not > support contextual adjustment of mark positioning, so combinations of nikud + te'amin > sometimes off-centre. Single mark positioning is very well supported, though, and I'm > hopeful that this limitation will be removed in future versions. > > John Hudson > > -- > > Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com > Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com > > I often play against man, God says, but it is he who wants > to lose, the idiot, and it is I who want him to win. > And I succeed sometimes > In making him win. > - Charles Peguy From tiro@tiro.com Sun Mar 14 17:57:45 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:57:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from Sophia (d66-183-160-160.bchsia.telus.net [66.183.160.160]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2EMvi812846 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 2004 17:57:44 -0500 Received: from tiro.com ([66.183.160.160]) by Sophia with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.2600.1106); Sun, 14 Mar 2004 14:57:32 -0800 Message-ID: <4054E35B.3060608@tiro.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 14:57:31 -0800 From: John Hudson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Grossman CC: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Taamei Hamikra and vowels combined References: <000b01c3fa63$54546830$53d072c0@b199323> <4051CE53.10901 0 5@qaya.org> <03aa01c4098a$30ce2690$8ad072c0@b199323> <40540782.3080705@ti ro.com> <026601c40a15$77bb96b0$33d072c0@b199323> In-Reply-To: <026601c40a15$77bb96b0$33d072c0@b199323> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Mar 2004 22:57:32.0074 (UTC) FILETIME=[BB9360A0:01C40A17] X-archive-position: 1178 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew David Grossman wrote: > In other words, as of today, we don't have a viable software solution, and > we don't have a Unicode solution. Apparently the Unicode people are > expecting the software people to find a solution, and the software people > are expecting Unicode to come up with a solution. > > The Hebrew Computing group concluded that there is no viable software > solution. John Hudson confirmed this on this Unicode group. > > I therefore return to my original query: Is there a way that Unicode can be > modified or developed in order to meet these advanced and exacting Hebrew > demands? David, you have completely misunderstood or misinterpreted my response. The issue of correct positioning of combined nikud+te'amin in InDesign ME 2.0 is not a Unicode issue. It is due to lack of application support for a specific GPOS lookup type in the OpenType font format (lookup type 8: chained contextual). This lookup type is perfectly implemented in apps from other vendors, e.g. MS Word and Publisher on Windows, but I do not consider either of these professional page layout apps, nor do they have cross-platform behaviour parity, which InDesign does. So the problem is one of delayed support for this OT Layout lookup type in the most desirable page layout application, and does not imply any need to modify Unicode. There are indeed some live issues in Hebrew text encoding, that Unicode needs to address (Peter Kirk has recently summarised some of these), but combined nikud+te'amin positioning is not one of them. We just need more applications to fully support intelligent font formats and layout services that implement Unicode Hebrew mark encoding. John Hudson -- Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com I often play against man, God says, but it is he who wants to lose, the idiot, and it is I who want him to win. And I succeed sometimes In making him win. - Charles Peguy From davidg@macam.ac.il Mon Mar 15 15:23:00 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:23:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.macam.ac.il (mail.mofet.macam98.ac.il [192.114.206.40]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2FKMxp08756 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:23:00 -0500 Received: from mail.macam.ac.il (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.macam.ac.il (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i2FJjdhG019350 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:45:39 +0200 Received: from b199323 (dailin218.dailin.macam98.ac.il [192.114.209.218])by mail.macam.ac.il (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id i2FJjTaD019274for ; Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:45:35 +0200 Message-ID: <012f01c40ac7$4d2693c0$dad172c0@b199323> From: "David Grossman" To: References: <000b01c3fa63$54546830$53d072c0@b199323> <4051CE53.1090 1 0 5@qaya.org> <03aa01c4098a$30ce2690$8ad072c0@b199323> <40540782.3080705@ ti ro.com> <026601c40a15$77bb96b0$33d072c0@b199323> <4054E35B.3060608@tiro. com> Subject: [hebrew] Re: Taamei Hamikra and vowels combined Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 21:34:14 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-imss-version: 2.0 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scores: Clean:62.07027 C:17 M:1 S:5 R:5 X-imss-settings: Baseline:4 C:4 M:4 S:4 R:4 (0.1000 0.4000) X-archive-position: 1179 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: davidg@macam.ac.il Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew I see. Thank you for clarifying that issue, John. David Grossman ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hudson" To: "David Grossman" Cc: Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 12:57 AM Subject: Re: [hebrew] Re: Taamei Hamikra and vowels combined > David Grossman wrote: > > > In other words, as of today, we don't have a viable software solution, and > > we don't have a Unicode solution. Apparently the Unicode people are > > expecting the software people to find a solution, and the software people > > are expecting Unicode to come up with a solution. > > > > The Hebrew Computing group concluded that there is no viable software > > solution. John Hudson confirmed this on this Unicode group. > > > > I therefore return to my original query: Is there a way that Unicode can be > > modified or developed in order to meet these advanced and exacting Hebrew > > demands? > > David, you have completely misunderstood or misinterpreted my response. The issue of > correct positioning of combined nikud+te'amin in InDesign ME 2.0 is not a Unicode issue. > It is due to lack of application support for a specific GPOS lookup type in the OpenType > font format (lookup type 8: chained contextual). This lookup type is perfectly implemented > in apps from other vendors, e.g. MS Word and Publisher on Windows, but I do not consider > either of these professional page layout apps, nor do they have cross-platform behaviour > parity, which InDesign does. So the problem is one of delayed support for this OT Layout > lookup type in the most desirable page layout application, and does not imply any need to > modify Unicode. There are indeed some live issues in Hebrew text encoding, that Unicode > needs to address (Peter Kirk has recently summarised some of these), but combined > nikud+te'amin positioning is not one of them. We just need more applications to fully > support intelligent font formats and layout services that implement Unicode Hebrew mark > encoding. > > John Hudson > > -- > > Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com > Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com > > I often play against man, God says, but it is he who wants > to lose, the idiot, and it is I who want him to win. > And I succeed sometimes > In making him win. > - Charles Peguy From dean.snyder@jhu.edu Tue Mar 16 10:23:59 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:24:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.46]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2GFNxp16351 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:23:59 -0500 Received: from sdn-ap-036dcwashp0183.dialsprint.net ([65.179.112.183]) by grebe.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 1B3GQ9-0001RR-00 for hebrew@unicode.org; Tue, 16 Mar 2004 07:23:58 -0800 From: "Dean Snyder" To: Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 10:21:30 -0500 Message-Id: <20040316152130.29599@smtp.earthlink.net> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 4.2 us Carbon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1180 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: dean.snyder@jhu.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Jony Rosenne wrote at 5:39 PM on Sunday, March 14, 2004: >"There are effectively two varieties of s with different pronunciations, and >which need different transliterations. In most traditions they are >graphically equivalent. " Michael Everson wrote at 3:42 PM on Sunday, March 14, 2004: >In which traditions are they not? At times in hollywood-ese, marketing speak, written street talk, graffiti, foreign transliterations... Boyz N the Hood, Boyz II Men, pleez, eazy, cheeze, toyz, ... Respectfully, Dean A. Snyder Assistant Research Scholar Manager, Digital Hammurabi Project Computer Science Department Whiting School of Engineering 218C New Engineering Building 3400 North Charles Street Johns Hopkins University Baltimore, Maryland, USA 21218 office: 410 516-6850 cell: 717 817-4897 www.jhu.edu/digitalhammurabi From elaine_keown@yahoo.com Thu Mar 25 15:48:41 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:48:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from web80807.mail.yahoo.com (web80807.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.170.102]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id i2PKmUe08686 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:48:40 -0500 Message-ID: <20040325204759.95802.qmail@web80807.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [150.135.161.66] by web80807.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:47:59 PST Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 12:47:59 -0800 (PST) From: Elaine Keown Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC To: Peter Kirk , hebrew@unicode.org In-Reply-To: <4051F51E.7090303@qaya.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 1181 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: elaine_keown@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Elaine Keown Tucson, southern Arizona Hi, I'm resting and will not be active on the list until at least May 15. Peter Kirk suggested that more clarification needs to be made with the "accents," the Hebrew te'amim, as below. > One further issue which needs clarification: the > distinction between > tsinnor and tsinnorit, also between pashta and > qadma/azla. Peter's right, of course, but I suggest that this wait until a complete table of accents can be put up on the Web, and possibly even until we collect more information on which accent differentiation is used right now (or will be used in the immediate future) in well known Hebrew databases from Israel and also Europe. The Bar Ilan University Responsa Project uses the Michigan-Claremont-Westminster text of the Hebrew Bible. However, I understand that they "tweaked" the Westminster text---most likely they refined the accent representation "beyond" Mich-Clare-Westminster. If anyone in Israel would like to follow up on this, I would be grateful. Elaine __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From peterkirk@qaya.org Thu Mar 25 17:50:15 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Thu, 25 Mar 2004 17:50:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.metronet.co.uk (mail.metronet.co.uk [213.162.97.75]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2PMnse23650 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2004 17:50:15 -0500 Received: from qaya.org (unknown [213.162.124.237]) by mail.metronet.co.uk (MetroNet Mail) with ESMTP id 2813140DE75; Thu, 25 Mar 2004 22:49:06 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <406361F2.7010601@qaya.org> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 14:49:22 -0800 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elaine Keown Cc: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC References: <20040325204759.95802.qmail@web80807.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040325204759.95802.qmail@web80807.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1182 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 25/03/2004 12:47, Elaine Keown wrote: > Elaine Keown > Tucson, southern Arizona > >Hi, > >I'm resting and will not be active on the list until >at least May 15. > >Peter Kirk suggested that more clarification needs to >be made with the "accents," the Hebrew te'amim, as >below. > > > >>One further issue which needs clarification: the >>distinction between >>tsinnor and tsinnorit, also between pashta and >>qadma/azla. >> >> > >Peter's right, of course, but I suggest that this wait >until a complete table of accents can be put up on the >Web, ... > There are already several compete tables of accents on the Web, for example Helmut Richter's at http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~hr/teamim/. Rather than waste effort making a completely new table, it would surely be more profitable to discuss what might be inadequate or misleading in existing lists. For example, I disagree with Richter about tsinor and tsinorit - but I also disagree with the notes in Unicode 4.0. >... and possibly even until we collect more >information on which accent differentiation is used >right now (or will be used in the immediate future) in >well known Hebrew databases from Israel and also >Europe. > >The Bar Ilan University Responsa Project uses the >Michigan-Claremont-Westminster text of the Hebrew >Bible. > >However, I understand that they "tweaked" the >Westminster text---most likely they refined the accent >representation "beyond" Mich-Clare-Westminster. > >If anyone in Israel would like to follow up on this, I >would be grateful. > > I would also be very grateful, but I am sceptical as well. Have they really introduced new accent distinctions? If so, what? The only accent distinction that I know of which is in Leningradensis, on which the Responsa text is based, and not in the WTS text is that between yerah ben yomo and atnah hafukh; also the subtle one between tsinor and tsinorit which is not quite correctly captured by the WTS text. -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ From elaine_keown@yahoo.com Thu Mar 25 18:25:36 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:25:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from web80809.mail.yahoo.com (web80809.mail.yahoo.com [66.163.170.104]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id i2PNPae29815 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2004 18:25:36 -0500 Message-ID: <20040325232535.45243.qmail@web80809.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [150.135.161.66] by web80809.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:25:35 PST Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 15:25:35 -0800 (PST) From: Elaine Keown Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC To: Peter Kirk Cc: hebrew@unicode.org In-Reply-To: <406361F2.7010601@qaya.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 1183 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: elaine_keown@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Elaine Keown Tucson, Arizona Dear Peter and list: Elaine Keown wrote: > >The Bar Ilan University Responsa Project uses the > >Michigan-Claremont-Westminster text of the Hebrew > >Bible. > > > >However, I understand that they "tweaked" the > >Westminster text---most likely they refined the > >accent representation "beyond" Mich-Clare- > >Westminster. > > > >If anyone in Israel would like to follow up on > this, I would be grateful. > > Peter Kirk wrote: > I would also be very grateful, but I am sceptical as > well. Have they really introduced new accent > distinctions? If so, what? The only accent > distinction that I know of which is in > Leningradensis, on which the Responsa text is based, > and not in the WTS text is that between yerah > ben yomo and atnah hafukh; also the subtle one > between tsinor and tsinorit which is not quite > correctly captured by > the WTS text. Elaine Keown wrote: There are a few more distinctions, but I still have not made the complete list. And I won't until May 15. I DON'T know what exactly they did at Bar Ilan--that's why I'm asking for help. But I know that everyone who works seriously with the accents on the computer (i.e., Prof. Price, Daniel Weil, Henry Churchyard, Richard Goerwitz, David Robinson, etc), whether they are doing ethnomusicology, generative phonology, or parallel-text algorithms, tweaks and refines Michigan-Claremont-Westminster's accent representation. Gone until May 15, have a lovely spring. Here we have yellow and lilac and other marvelous cacti in the beautiful Sonoran desert of southern Arizona--Elaine __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time. http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html From peterkirk@qaya.org Thu Mar 25 19:03:11 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.metronet.co.uk (mail.metronet.co.uk [213.162.97.75]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2Q03Be07619 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:03:11 -0500 Received: from qaya.org (unknown [213.162.124.237]) by mail.metronet.co.uk (MetroNet Mail) with ESMTP id 05890407251; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 00:02:51 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <4063733D.2040601@qaya.org> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 16:03:09 -0800 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elaine Keown Cc: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC References: <20040325232535.45243.qmail@web80809.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20040325232535.45243.qmail@web80809.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1184 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 25/03/2004 15:25, Elaine Keown wrote: > ... > >But I know that everyone who works seriously with the >accents on the computer (i.e., Prof. Price, Daniel >Weil, Henry Churchyard, Richard Goerwitz, >David Robinson, etc), whether they are doing >ethnomusicology, generative phonology, or >parallel-text algorithms, tweaks and refines >Michigan-Claremont-Westminster's accent >representation. > > > If they tweak and refine the representation to introduce distinctions dependent on their own theories, then that goes beyond the scope of Unicode, which distinguishes characters either because of different glyphs and positionings or because they have manifestly different properties. Unicode will be interested only if they find new distinctions in the glyphs, like the recently rediscovered distinction between yerah ben yomo and atnah hafukh. Unicode will not even encode clear non-graphical distinctions like between silent and vocal sheva (or between consonant y and vowel y in English); how much less will it encode non-graphical distinctions between accents which depend on the theory of individual scholars. These clear rules of Unicode frustrate you, Elaine, I know, and sometimes they frustrate me, but they do keep the task within reasonable bounds. Without such rules we could end up in confusion, with Price's extra Hebrew characters, Weil's ones, Churchyard's one etc etc but no agreed text because no two scholars agree on the classification of each accent. So the rule has to be, for Unicode as well as for the WTS Hebrew text, encode what is written, not what (in your opinion) is meant. If scholars want to add their own interpretations of individual characters, they need to use some kind of markup or higher level protocol - which could I suppose be by inserting PUA characters into the text. >Gone until May 15, have a lovely spring. Here we have >yellow and lilac and other marvelous cacti in the >beautiful Sonoran desert of southern Arizona--Elaine > > > You too enjoy your spring. I miss the desert but at least my cool wet English spring is beautifully green. Peter -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ From mark@kli.org Fri Mar 26 11:03:53 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:03:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from pi.meson.org (h-66-134-26-207.nycmny83.covad.net [66.134.26.207]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id i2QG3me12471 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:03:49 -0500 Received: (qmail 23134 invoked from network); 26 Mar 2004 16:03:36 -0000 Received: from nagas.meson.org (HELO kli.org) (1000@192.168.1.101) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 26 Mar 2004 16:03:36 -0000 Message-ID: <4064542E.30800@kli.org> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 11:02:54 -0500 From: "Mark E. Shoulson" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Kirk CC: Elaine Keown , hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC References: <20040325204759.95802.qmail@web80807.mail.yahoo.com> <406361F2.7010601@qaya.org> In-Reply-To: <406361F2.7010601@qaya.org> X-Hebrew-Date: 4 Nissan 5764 11:01am (horae temporales) X-Enigmail-Version: 0.76.3.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1185 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: mark@kli.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Peter Kirk wrote: > There are already several compete tables of accents on the Web, for > example Helmut Richter's at http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~hr/teamim/. > Rather than waste effort making a completely new table, it would > surely be more profitable to discuss what might be inadequate or > misleading in existing lists. For example, I disagree with Richter > about tsinor and tsinorit - but I also disagree with the notes in > Unicode 4.0. So what's your thinking on tsinor/tsinorit, then? I agree the thing is a mess, but given stability principles the only thing I can see that makes sense is Richter's Solution #3. A zarqa is a zarqa is also a tsinor, and a tsinorit is a tsinorit, even if occasionally placed funny (that's a typesetting matter), and even if named wrong. I could be convinced otherwise, though. Near as I can tell, the best we can do is explain things in the notes. What other things are still being batted about? Hmm... the coding of medial (auxiliary) pashta (should be coded with U+0599)... possibly the coding of what Breuer calls "metiga" (should be coded U+05A8, or else given its own code, but 05A8 is fine)... There is some reason to ask for a distinction between paseq and the legarmehh-line, but that would be a pretty tough sell, for all that it would make computational work *lots* easier. Us computer geeks will probably have to make due with PUA and prepare our own texts. Mayela/mereha distinction is similar, though slightly less important computationally (at least you can look at the text and tell which it is with a little work, while paseq/legarmehh requires checking another list). Oh, and my bugaboo, the TETRAGRAMMATON thingy, about which I've had some minor revelations (in the non-spiritual sense) that I'll probably bring up on this list Real Soon Now. ~mark From Aktonin@paradise.net.nz Wed Mar 31 06:38:02 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:38:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from linda-3.paradise.net.nz (bm-3a.paradise.net.nz [202.0.58.22]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2VBc1U10840 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:38:02 -0500 Received: from smtp-2.paradise.net.nz (smtp-2b.paradise.net.nz [202.0.32.211]) by linda-3.paradise.net.nz (Paradise.net.nz) with ESMTP id <0HVF00BBEUZBJ7@linda-3.paradise.net.nz> for hebrew@unicode.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:37:59 +1200 (NZST) Received: from MALIACHEEM (218-101-46-147.paradise.net.nz [218.101.46.147]) by smtp-2.paradise.net.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88EF09E46E for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:37:59 +1200 (NZST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 23:38:03 +1200 From: David Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC In-reply-to: <01c201c40980$fd03e010$8ad072c0@b199323> To: hebrew@unicode.org Message-id: <000001c41714$a10412c0$0100a8c0@MALIACHEEM> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-archive-position: 1186 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: Aktonin@paradise.net.nz Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Shalom and Greetings all! There is a point I would like to hear your feedback on. Isn't Unicode about giving people the ability to express whatever they like through one encryption method with all the symbols, letters, etc? and not policing their use of them? I think Kametz Katan is a very simple mark to include in Unicode and as far as I know, and it was part of the Masoritic Text from what I was told. Is it really so hard to include? To me it seems pointless talking about how various people use symbols for different purposes, because people will always use the same or similar symbols for different things. Isn't the important thing giving people the 'ability' to use the symbols? I don't think Unicode is about enforcing standardizing of language upon people in how they use various markings? But one of its purposes is to give people the ability to communicate to others that use the same method of communication? Very Sincerely, David R. -----Original Message----- From: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:hebrew-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of David Grossman Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2004 5:57 PM To: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC You won't find standardization here, since only the shewa itself is considered a vowel. The other distinctions are simply suggestions by publishers. However, this recommendation is indeed valid. Perhaps we can have *several* possibilities. After all, it certainly is important and valid for people, especially those who read the Torah, to be able to distinguish between Shewa Na and Shewa Nach -, and also to be able to identify a Kametz Katan, for that matter. David Grossman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Kirk" To: "David" Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 1:14 PM Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC > On 13/03/2004 01:14, David wrote: > > >Hello, > > > >I'd just like to see vocal shewa and silent shewa added for tikun > >purposes. > > > >Thanks. > > > > > > > > > This is an interesting issue. There are effectively two varieties of > sheva with different pronunciations, and which need different > transliterations. In most traditions they are graphically equivalent. > Some publishers make a distinction between them, but as far as I am > aware there is no standardised glyph distinction. > > The same applies to the two varieties of qamats. > > I see a good argument for making these distinctions visible in plain > text, perhaps with a default ignorable character to make the > distinction? But I think we may need to find evidence of some kind of > standardisation of use across a range of publishers before we can make > a case for new characters or new sequences. > > -- > Peter Kirk > peter@qaya.org (personal) > peterkirk@qaya.org (work) > http://www.qaya.org/ > From peterkirk@qaya.org Wed Mar 31 07:48:45 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:49:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.metronet.co.uk (mail.metronet.co.uk [213.162.97.75]) by unicode.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i2VCmPU24855 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 07:48:45 -0500 Received: from qaya.org (unknown [213.162.124.237]) by mail.metronet.co.uk (MetroNet Mail) with ESMTP id DEFB7417623; Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:47:42 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <406ABDF7.908@qaya.org> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 04:47:51 -0800 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Cc: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Hebrew items for June UTC References: <000001c41714$a10412c0$0100a8c0@MALIACHEEM> In-Reply-To: <000001c41714$a10412c0$0100a8c0@MALIACHEEM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 1187 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 31/03/2004 03:38, David wrote: >Shalom and Greetings all! > >There is a point I would like to hear your feedback on. >Isn't Unicode about giving people the ability to express whatever they >like through one encryption method with all the symbols, letters, etc? >and not policing their use of them? > > Two corrections here: 1. Not encryption, but encoding. Nothing secret, that's the point of a standard. 2. "Whatever they like" needs some qualification. Unicode gives the ability to use characters which are already in general use and so suitable for standardisation. It does not give people the freedom to invent their own characters, except through the Private Use Area (which is unfortunately restricted in practice to left to right scripts with no combining marks, and so useless for Hebrew - see a current thread on the main Unicode list). >I think Kametz Katan is a very simple mark to include in Unicode and as >far as I know, >and it was part of the Masoritic Text from what I was told. Is it really >so hard to include? > > It would be easy to add to Unicode if someone could demonstrate its regular use as a distinct character. In the Masoretic text, and as far as I know in all manuscripts and all printed editions except for a few specialised modern ones, there is no graphical distinction between qamats qatan and qamats gadol. They may be pronounced differently (even this is debatable, concering the original Tiberian pronunciation), but they are written the same. Therefore for Unicode purposes they are one character. The situation is in fact exactly parallel to English vowels. For example, "i" has (at least) two quite distinct pronunciations in English. But they are written exactly the same. And so, for Unicode purposes, they are one character. Now of course many English dictionaries and some texts for beginners (also, interestingly, some English Bible versions with biblical names whose pronunciation might otherwise be ambiguous) add diacritical marks to English words to indicate their pronunciation, and use special symbols e.g. for the two pronunciations of th. Unicode encodes these symbols and marks, at least if they are used with any consistency, and potentially even if they are used in just one publication. Similarly, I know that some Hebrew dictionaries and other texts do make graphical distinctions between the two varieties of qamats and the two of sheva. If any such graphical distinctions are in regular use, they are candidates for encoding in Unicode, not because of the pronunciation distinction but because of the graphical one. If you or anyone else are able to provide evidence of any such graphical distinctions, preferably ones used consistently in a number of publications, a case could be made to Unicode for distinct characters. These would be intended for graphical representation of those specific publications; they could of course be used in new publications making the graphical distinction, but no one should be expected to recode existing texts which do not make this distinction. It would be an interesting question whether such a distinction should be represented by an alternative qamats qatan character or by a variation selector sequence. If this distinction is made only in what Unicode deems as private use, i.e. not for general data interchange, the obvious thing to do is to use a private variation selector, e.g. to mark a particular qamats as qamats qatan. This special marking would be ignored by processes such as collation, and by rendering engines unless a font is set up specially to make the distinction. Unfortunately the UTC seems to be set against defining private variation selectors. Unless they can be persuaded to change their minds, I see no alternative to using the already defined variation selectors in non-standardised sequences in cases like this. >To me it seems pointless talking about how various people use symbols >for different purposes, because people will always use the same or >similar symbols for different things. >Isn't the important thing giving people the 'ability' to use the >symbols? > > Unicode gives the ability to use the symbols, but doesn't specify the different purposes for which the symbols are used. The same qamats symbol is used for two different purposes, i.e. two different pronunciations, but as far as Unicode is concerned it is one symbol. >I don't think Unicode is about enforcing standardizing of language upon >people in how they use various markings? But one of its purposes is to >give people the ability to communicate to others that use the same >method of communication? > > Absolutely! But it is not about making distinctions which are not made in the writing system. -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/