From k_isoetc@yahoo.com Fri Oct 15 11:19:00 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:31:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from web53808.mail.yahoo.com (web53808.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.203]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9FHIvi6022379 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:18:59 -0600 Message-ID: <20041015170121.1938.qmail@web53808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.170.151] by web53808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 10:01:21 PDT Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 10:01:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "E. Keown" Subject: [hebrew] Re: June Hebrew ? To: Unicode Mailing List , hebrew@unicode.org Cc: hebrewcomputing@yahoogroups.com, b-hebrew@lists.ibiblio.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 2776 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: k_isoetc@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Elaine Keown Seattle 206 384 4349 Dear Peter Constable and Lists: Peter Constable replied on the Unicode list: >Which items? There were three at the June meeting: >- atnah hafukh >- lower dot and nun hafukha >- qamats qatan Sorry--I was referring to those items *currently* used within Michigan-Claremont-Westminster-- lower dot and nun hafukha. A Michigan-Claremont-Westminster of the *future* could conceivably use the other two items, but I am almost certain that has not been decided yet...... Since the core issue, internationally, is that we Hebraists still can't upload our most widely used electronic Hebrew Bible to Unicode, I'm focusing on the 2 items *definitely* needed for that. >No, the decisions regarding the characters above >have already been made: >WG2 approved these characters at their June meeting, I don't understand. In theory the standards world is international and has *some* checks and balances---far fewer, it would seem, since about 1988. Do these 31 member countries ballot electronically or not? >Isreal *is* an official member of this committee, >with observer status. >The choice to be a participating member or only an >observer is up to each country. Thank you for this clarification--I had been very puzzled about the country membership situation --Elaine in Seattle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From k_isoetc@yahoo.com Fri Oct 15 09:20:18 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:04:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from web53808.mail.yahoo.com (web53808.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.203]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9FFKH0S022968 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:20:18 -0600 Message-ID: <20041015150732.53144.qmail@web53808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.170.151] by web53808.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:07:32 PDT Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:07:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "E. Keown" Subject: [hebrew] June Hebrew ? To: Unicode Mailing List , hebrew@unicode.org Cc: hebrewcomputing@yahoogroups.com, b-hebrew@lists.ibiblio.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 2777 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: k_isoetc@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Elaine Keown Seattle 206 384 4349 Hi, I'm writing to inquire about the remaining steps to include the two "June 2004" Hebrew items in the UCS. In June they were voted on positively by the American Redmond-Silicon Valley-based UTC and by the international JTC 1/SC2, the character set committee for ISO worldwide. Now I presume the 31 paid member countries of ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 2----Austria, Belgium, Canada, China, Denmark, Egypt, Finland, France, Germany....Sweden, Thailand, Tunisia, U.S.A.---are voting electronically on these Hebrew items. Are there a 4th and 5th steps, or is the 31-country vote the end of all that? It appears to me that Israel is not an official member of this committee, so her ISO leaders will not be voting. Is this correct? Or are exceptions made when a special vote such as this occurs? Also, will the Hebrew list and other interested parties be given an opportunity to make remarks on placement of these items within the main Hebrew block? These are both core Tiberian items, used by the standard Michigan-Claremont-Westminster text, so there is *no* controversy with them. Thanks, Elaine _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From petercon@microsoft.com Fri Oct 15 14:07:53 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:06:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9FK7nc8014470; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 14:07:53 -0600 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.196); Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:08:39 -0700 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:07:51 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [hebrew] Re: June Hebrew ? Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 13:07:58 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [hebrew] Re: June Hebrew ? Thread-Index: AcSy3W9njb0E44ZMQYSr2hti7stPJgAE0L+w From: "Peter Constable" To: "E. Keown" , "Unicode Mailing List" , Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Oct 2004 20:07:51.0915 (UTC) FILETIME=[A68AA3B0:01C4B2F2] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id i9FK7nc8014470 X-archive-position: 2778 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: petercon@microsoft.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew > From: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:hebrew-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf > Of E. Keown > >No, the decisions regarding the characters above > >have already been made: > >WG2 approved these characters at their June meeting, > > I don't understand. In theory the standards world is > international and has *some* checks and balances---far > fewer, it would seem, since about 1988. > > Do these 31 member countries ballot electronically or > not? The ISO process has not changed in this regard. There are letter ballots (handled by snail mail or by email), and votes taken at meetings (those meetings being announced in advance). Countries can choose to attend meetings or not, and can choose to respond to the letter ballots or not. As I explained, JTC1/SC2/WG2 met in June and voted to approve the addition of those two characters in Amd1. In more detail, a national body had commented in a letter ballot on the previous draft that these two characters should be added, the editor proposed to respond to those comments by adding the two characters, and the national bodies represented at the WG2 meeting voted to approve that disposition of those comments. After WG2 reviewed all of the comments and voted on how they should be resolved, SC/2 in their plenary meeting endorsed the resolution of comments. Procedurally, this is all well-established process. Based on the approved resolution of comments, the editor prepares a new draft that is distributed for letter ballot. This will be sent to participating and observing countries, all of whom may submit comments, but only the former will be sent ballots for voting. Again, this is all following long-established ISO process. Peter Peter Constable Globalization Infrastructure and Font Technologies Microsoft Windows Division From k_isoetc@yahoo.com Tue Oct 26 18:22:02 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:14:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from web53809.mail.yahoo.com (web53809.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.204]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9R0LrUK031185 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 18:22:02 -0600 Message-ID: <20041027002146.57262.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.170.151] by web53809.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:21:46 PDT Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 17:21:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "E. Keown" Subject: [hebrew] The Mozilla Issue.... To: hebrew@unicode.org Cc: hebrewcomputing@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 2779 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: k_isoetc@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Elaine Keown Seattle 206 384 4349 Hi, I'm doing a Semitics web page which I hope will be widely useful. I just found out it won't work in Mozilla. How many of you are using Mozilla, if I may ask? I've only known what Mozilla was for about 3 weeks. And what Opera was.......and that there are other such things....Elaine __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From tiro@tiro.com Tue Oct 26 20:29:28 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:01:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9R2TLnc019277 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:29:28 -0600 Received: from [64.180.191.178] by priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with ESMTP id <20041027022914.DCBN19596.priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net@[64.180.191.178]>; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:29:14 -0600 Message-ID: <417F07EF.90201@tiro.com> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:29:03 -0700 From: John Hudson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "E. Keown" CC: hebrew@unicode.org, hebrewcomputing@yahoogroups.com Subject: [hebrew] Re: The Mozilla Issue.... References: <20041027002146.57262.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041027002146.57262.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2780 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew E. Keown wrote: > I'm doing a Semitics web page which I hope will be > widely useful. > > I just found out it won't work in Mozilla. > > How many of you are using Mozilla, if I may ask? > > I've only known what Mozilla was for about 3 weeks. > And what Opera was.......and that there are other such things....Elaine I suspect that large numbers of Mozilla users have already upgraded to Firefox (formerly Firebird). Firefox is gradually picking up a significant market share, but still small pickings compared to Internet Explorer of course. I have not used Firefox very much for Hebrew, but my SBL Hebrew test documents seem to work well. If you want to send me a URL I can visit to see your site, I can make a screenshot of how it looks in the latest Firefox. See http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/ for more information. John Hudson -- Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com Currently reading: Difficulites, by Ronald Knox & Arnold Lunn From mark@kli.org Tue Oct 26 20:42:03 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:40:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from pi.meson.org (h-66-134-26-207.nycmny83.covad.net [66.134.26.207]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9R2fnEY021449 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:42:02 -0600 Received: (qmail 23535 invoked from network); 27 Oct 2004 02:41:57 -0000 Received: from nagas.meson.org (HELO kli.org) (1000@192.168.1.101) by pi.meson.org with SMTP; 27 Oct 2004 02:41:57 -0000 Message-ID: <417F0AE6.4070707@kli.org> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:41:42 -0400 From: "Mark E. Shoulson" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "E. Keown" CC: hebrew@unicode.org, hebrewcomputing@yahoogroups.com Subject: [hebrew] Re: The Mozilla Issue.... References: <20041027002146.57262.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041027002146.57262.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2781 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: mark@kli.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Mozilla is my regular browser. Its Hebrew support is actually not bad, at least with some fonts. What is it you're trying to do? ~mark E. Keown wrote: > Elaine Keown > Seattle > 206 384 4349 > >Hi, > >I'm doing a Semitics web page which I hope will be >widely useful. > >I just found out it won't work in Mozilla. > >How many of you are using Mozilla, if I may ask? > >I've only known what Mozilla was for about 3 weeks. >And what Opera was.......and that there are other such things....Elaine > > > From k_isoetc@yahoo.com Tue Oct 26 21:55:27 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:01:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from web53806.mail.yahoo.com (web53806.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.201]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9R3tQLV003777 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:55:27 -0600 Message-ID: <20041027035520.55128.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.170.151] by web53806.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:55:20 PDT Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:55:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "E. Keown" Subject: [hebrew] Re: The Mozilla Issue.... To: "Mark E. Shoulson" Cc: hebrew@unicode.org, hebrewcomputing@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <417F0AE6.4070707@kli.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 2782 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: k_isoetc@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Elaine Keown Seattle 206 384 4349 Dear Mark: > Mozilla is my regular browser. Well, ouch, et tu, Marce... I'm actually just using CSS with
tags... I don't know how to do cross-browser code yet, though I now know it exists. Apparently Mozilla has its very own set of CSS tags.... Glad to hear from you--EK __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From tiro@tiro.com Tue Oct 26 22:54:56 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Wed, 27 Oct 2004 05:15:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9R4srSI021427 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:54:56 -0600 Received: from [64.180.191.178] by priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with ESMTP id <20041027045444.YFTT10224.priv-edtnes27.telusplanet.net@[64.180.191.178]>; Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:54:44 -0600 Message-ID: <417F2A0A.3050807@tiro.com> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:54:34 -0700 From: John Hudson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "E. Keown" CC: "Mark E. Shoulson" , hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: The Mozilla Issue.... References: <20041027035520.55128.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041027035520.55128.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2783 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew E. Keown wrote: > I'm actually just using CSS with
tags... That should work fine in Mozilla and pretty much any other current browser. > I don't know how to do cross-browser code yet, though > I now know it exists. Apparently Mozilla has its very > own set of CSS tags.... Not that I'm aware of. Generally speaking, Mozilla, Firefox and Opera are all more standard's compliant than Internet Explorer. What you will find, however, is that a) only some CSS tags are supported by each browser, and some browsers may not support the same CSS subset as other browsers, and b) how individual browsers interpret individual CSS tags may vary. However, unless you are doing something incredibly complicated, well-formatted CSS and HTML should have reliable results in most current browsers. Have you checked that your code validates? Some browsers are pickier than others about well-formatted tags, HTML versioning, etc. Regards, John -- Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com Currently reading: Difficulites, by Ronald Knox & Arnold Lunn From tiro@tiro.com Wed Oct 27 02:10:32 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Wed, 27 Oct 2004 05:15:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9R8AVvS012490 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 02:10:31 -0600 Received: from [64.180.191.178] by priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with ESMTP id <20041027081024.WAIQ29883.priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net@[64.180.191.178]>; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 02:10:24 -0600 Message-ID: <417F57E2.6030608@tiro.com> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 01:10:10 -0700 From: John Hudson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "E. Keown" CC: "Mark E. Shoulson" , hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: The Mozilla Issue.... References: <20041027071032.69412.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041027071032.69412.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2784 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew E. Keown wrote: >>Have you checked that your code validates? Some >>browsers are pickier than others about >>well-formatted tags, HTML versioning, etc. > I'm very tidy in my approach to all these things, but > I don't know that much about Internet stuff (much more > since August)--how do you find out if it 'validates'? http://validator.w3.org/ http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator-uri.html JH -- Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com Currently reading: Difficulites, by Ronald Knox & Arnold Lunn From peterkirk@qaya.org Wed Oct 27 04:46:21 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Wed, 27 Oct 2004 05:16:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.kastanet.org [208.145.81.89]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9RAk3Ab009795 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:46:21 -0600 X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/ClamAV http://raeinternet.com/mpp Received: from [213.162.124.237] (account peter_kirk@kastanet.org HELO [10.0.0.1]) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 51586793; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 06:46:00 -0400 Message-ID: <417F7C68.4020302@qaya.org> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:46:00 +0100 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hebrew@unicode.org, hebrewcomputing@yahoogroups.com Subject: [hebrew] Re: The Mozilla Issue.... References: <20041027035520.55128.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041027035520.55128.qmail@web53806.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2785 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 27/10/2004 04:55, E. Keown wrote: > Elaine Keown > Seattle > 206 384 4349 > >Dear Mark: > > > >>Mozilla is my regular browser. >> >> > >Well, ouch, et tu, Marce... > >I'm actually just using CSS with
tags... >I don't know how to do cross-browser code yet, though >I now know it exists. Apparently Mozilla has its very >own set of CSS tags.... > >Glad to hear from you--EK > > > Elaine's page is actually almost all in English, but it tries to use clever formatting to put the text in columns. This seems to more or less work in IE, but probably in no other browser. An attempt to validate the HTML brings up a huge list of problems. I have already told her this off list, and pointed out that she is very unwise to assume that her audience uses IE. Mozilla, and probably Firefox (which is not exactly an upgrade), are careful to follow the standards. If anyone uses non-standard CSS, it is probably IE. -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ From k_isoetc@yahoo.com Wed Oct 27 01:10:40 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Wed, 27 Oct 2004 05:26:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from web53809.mail.yahoo.com (web53809.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.36.204]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9R7Ac4R019245 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 01:10:39 -0600 Message-ID: <20041027071032.69412.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.18.170.151] by web53809.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:10:32 PDT Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:10:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "E. Keown" Subject: [hebrew] Re: The Mozilla Issue.... To: John Hudson Cc: "Mark E. Shoulson" , hebrew@unicode.org In-Reply-To: <417F2A0A.3050807@tiro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 2786 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: k_isoetc@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Elaine in Seattle Dear John, Mark, List: > That should work fine in Mozilla and pretty much any > other current browser. As I wrote, it crashes for Peter K.--but he's asleep now and I don't know what version Mozilla he has... > unless you are doing something > incredibly complicated, well-formatted When you see it, let me know how complicated it seems... > Have you checked that your code validates? Some > browsers are pickier than others about > well-formatted tags, HTML versioning, etc. I'm very tidy in my approach to all these things, but I don't know that much about Internet stuff (much more since August)--how do you find out if it 'validates'? Elaine __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From peterkirk@qaya.org Wed Oct 27 04:50:36 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:46:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.link77.net (mail.kastanet.org [208.145.81.89]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9RAoVrH010311 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 04:50:36 -0600 X-Scanned-By: RAE MPP/ClamAV http://raeinternet.com/mpp Received: from [213.162.124.237] (account peter_kirk@kastanet.org HELO [10.0.0.1]) by mail.link77.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 51587298; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 06:50:29 -0400 Message-ID: <417F7D74.6050601@qaya.org> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:50:28 +0100 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040910 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Hudson CC: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: The Mozilla Issue.... References: <20041027002146.57262.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> <417F07EF.90201@tiro.com> In-Reply-To: <417F07EF.90201@tiro.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2787 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 27/10/2004 03:29, John Hudson wrote: > ... > I suspect that large numbers of Mozilla users have already upgraded to > Firefox (formerly Firebird). Firefox is gradually picking up a > significant market share, but still small pickings compared to > Internet Explorer of course. > > I have not used Firefox very much for Hebrew, but my SBL Hebrew test > documents seem to work well. If you want to send me a URL I can visit > to see your site, I can make a screenshot of how it looks in the > latest Firefox. > > See http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/ for more information. > John, I find it strange that you are recommending upgrade to a product which has not yet been officially released. From http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/releases/: > Firefox Preview Release (henceforth refered to as PR) is a *Technology > Preview*. While this software works well enough to be relied upon as > your primary browser in most cases, we make no guarantees of its > performance or stability. It is a pre-release product and should not > be relied upon for mission-critical tasks. -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ From jcowan@reutershealth.com Wed Oct 27 12:15:41 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:15:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from ratanakiri.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.37]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9RIFR7E018621 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:15:41 -0600 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by ratanakiri.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id i9RIFIi2016489; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:15:22 -0400 Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:15:22 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Peter Kirk Cc: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: The Mozilla Issue.... Message-ID: <20041027181521.GA23796@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <20041027002146.57262.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> <417F07EF.90201@tiro.com> <417F7D74.6050601@qaya.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <417F7D74.6050601@qaya.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-archive-position: 2788 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: jcowan@reutershealth.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Peter Kirk scripsit: > John, I find it strange that you are recommending upgrade to a product > which has not yet been officially released. From > http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/releases/: It's important to understand the distinction between the semantics of "1.0" in the world of proprietary software and in the open-source world. To the former, "1.0" means "This was rushed out the door fast in hopes that someone will buy it and send in enough money to keep the company afloat; don't expect much, because you surely won't get it." Such software is rarely worth anything at all until about 3.0. "1.0" on open-source software means "This is damn well as good as we can make it, enough that we are ready to stake our reputations on it (which is about all we expect to get, since we don't get to charge monopoly rents for this work). It's been thoroughly hammered on by users all over the world and can be expected to hold up." Much extremely useful software never quite makes it to the 1.0 level, because the developers aren't quite yet ready to trust, if not their lives and fortunes, certainly their sacred honor to it. For a 1.0 preview, deduct a few points from each of these characterizations. > >Firefox Preview Release (henceforth refered to as PR) is a *Technology > >Preview*. While this software works well enough to be relied upon as > >your primary browser in most cases, we make no guarantees of its > >performance or stability. It is a pre-release product and should not > >be relied upon for mission-critical tasks. That's a CYA defense against legal liability. In fact, of course, all software is sold or given away strictly AS IS; if it breaks, it's your problem. -- John Cowan jcowan@reutershealth.com www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan I am he that buries his friends alive and drowns them and draws them alive again from the water. I came from the end of a bag, but no bag went over me. I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I am Barrel-rider. --Bilbo to Smaug From tiro@tiro.com Wed Oct 27 12:21:50 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:29:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9RILO3S020957 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:21:49 -0600 Received: from [64.180.191.178] by priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.03.02 201-2131-111-104-20040324) with ESMTP id <20041027182118.PKID5991.priv-edtnes57.telusplanet.net@[64.180.191.178]>; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:21:18 -0600 Message-ID: <417FE71C.5010602@tiro.com> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:21:16 -0700 From: John Hudson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Kirk CC: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: The Mozilla Issue.... References: <20041027002146.57262.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> <417F07EF.90201@tiro.com> <417F7D74.6050601@qaya.org> In-Reply-To: <417F7D74.6050601@qaya.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2789 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Peter Kirk wrote: > John, I find it strange that you are recommending upgrade to a product > which has not yet been officially released. From > http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/releases/: >> Firefox Preview Release (henceforth refered to as PR) is a *Technology >> Preview*. While this software works well enough to be relied upon as >> your primary browser in most cases, we make no guarantees of its >> performance or stability. It is a pre-release product and should not >> be relied upon for mission-critical tasks. I suppose they need to cover their rears with such language, but Firefox is still the best, most stable and secure browser I've used. When the preview release version is this much better than the competition, I have no qualms about recommending it. I probably wouldn't rely on IE for any 'mission-critical' task, despite the fact that it has been in public beta its whole life ;) I'm also not alone in this recommendation. Numerous mainstream newspapers, magazines and tech websites have been recommending Firefox for months. JH -- Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com Currently reading: Difficulites, by Ronald Knox & Arnold Lunn From rick@unicode.org Wed Oct 27 14:47:57 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:41:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from izanami (ip-216-36-75-240.dsl.sjc.megapath.net [216.36.75.240]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9RKlGLh011613; Wed, 27 Oct 2004 14:47:17 -0600 Message-Id: <200410272047.i9RKlGLh011613@unicode.org> To: unicode@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Public Review Issues Update Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:47:15 -0700 From: Rick McGowan received: by Apple.Mailer (2.95.2) X-archive-position: 2790 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: rick@unicode.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew The Unicode Technical Committee has posted a new issue for public review and comment. Details are on the following web page: http://www.unicode.org/review/ Review periods for the new item closes on November 8, 2004. Please see the page for links to discussion and relevant documents. Briefly, the new issue is: Proposed Draft UTR #33 Unicode Conformance Model This proposed draft Unicode Technical Report explains the issue of conformance relating to the Unicode Standard so that users better understand the contexts in which products are making claims for support of the standard, and implementers better understand how to meet the formal conformance requirements while satisfying the expectations of their users. It does not alter, augment or override the actual Unicode conformance requirements. Rather it attempts to provide a conceptual framework to make it easier for users and implementers to identify and understand the specific conformance requirements. If you have comments for official UTC consideration, please post them by submitting your comments through our feedback & reporting page: http://www.unicode.org/reporting.html If you wish to discuss issues on the Unicode mail list, then please use the following link to subscribe (if necessary). Please be aware that discussion comments on the Unicode mail list are not automatically recorded as input to the UTC. You must use the reporting link above to generate comments for UTC consideration. http://www.unicode.org/consortium/distlist.html Regards, Rick McGowan Unicode, Inc. From rick@unicode.org Thu Oct 28 16:15:58 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:50:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from izanami (ip-216-36-75-240.dsl.sjc.megapath.net [216.36.75.240]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id i9SMFAHY012066; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 16:15:13 -0600 Message-Id: <200410282215.i9SMFAHY012066@unicode.org> To: unicode@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Public Review Issues Update Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 15:15:07 -0700 From: Rick McGowan received: by Apple.Mailer (2.95.2) X-archive-position: 2791 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: rick@unicode.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew The Unicode Technical Committee has posted a new issue for public review and comment. Details are on the following web page: http://www.unicode.org/review/ Review periods for the new item closes on November 8, 2004. Please see the page for links to discussion and relevant documents. Briefly, the new issue is: 54 Proposed Update UTS #22 Character Mapping Markup Language This is a proposed update to a previously approved Unicode Technical Report. It will change to a Unicode Technical Standard, so the update includes a new conformance section. Included in the update are many editorial changes and explicit text about multiple-character mappings If you have comments for official UTC consideration, please post them by submitting your comments through our feedback & reporting page: http://www.unicode.org/reporting.html If you wish to discuss issues on the Unicode mail list, then please use the following link to subscribe (if necessary). Please be aware that discussion comments on the Unicode mail list are not automatically recorded as input to the UTC. You must use the reporting link above to generate comments for UTC consideration. http://www.unicode.org/consortium/distlist.html Regards, Rick McGowan Unicode, Inc. From xslf@xslf.com Thu Oct 28 11:39:42 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:57:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from mxout5.netvision.net.il (mxout5.netvision.net.il [194.90.9.29]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9SHdcwF006204 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:39:42 -0600 Received: from [192.168.1.3] ([212.235.113.142]) by mxout5.netvision.net.il (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003)) with ESMTP id <0I6B001UZ2DW2J@mxout5.netvision.net.il> for hebrew@unicode.org; Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:39:32 +0200 (IST) Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:39:30 +0200 From: Shoshannah Forbes Subject: [hebrew] Re: The Mozilla Issue.... In-reply-to: <20041027002146.57262.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> To: "E. Keown" Cc: hebrew@unicode.org, hebrewcomputing@yahoogroups.com Message-id: <525ADAFB-2908-11D9-A749-003065C0167C@xslf.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20041027002146.57262.qmail@web53809.mail.yahoo.com> X-archive-position: 2792 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: xslf@xslf.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 27/10/2004, at 02:21, E. Keown wrote: > I just found out it won't work in Mozilla. > > How many of you are using Mozilla, if I may ask? Well, as I work on Mac/Linux (I don't have Windows here), I use Mozilla-based browsers a lot (Mainly Firefox, but also Epiphany). BTW, most of my web surfing is done in Hebrew. --- Shoshannah Forbes http://www.xslf.com