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From: "Karljurgen Feuerherm" <kfeuerherm@wlu.ca>
To: <hebrew@unicode.org>, <pim.rietbroek@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [hebrew] Re: Stress accent character encoding?
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<cough>

authoritative?

:)

>>> Pim Rietbroek <pim.rietbroek@xs4all.nl> 30/11/2004 7:10:37 pm >>>
Dear List,

As a newbie I apologize if this question has been posed and answered on

this list before!  I could not find a FAQ.

Do you wise persons have any advice on the proper Unicode code point to

use for the Hebrew stress accent character, which in shape does not 
differ from Hebrew OLE U+05AB?  Do we need encoding as U+05AB, or is a

different tack needed?  I do not think that both the "Hebrew stress 
accent character shaped as Hebrew Ole, U+05AB" and "Hebrew Ole, U+05AB"

will ever occur within one and the same document differentiated in a 
significant way--unless it be precisely this one--and I have been 
reliably dissuaded to attempt to differentiate semantics (Hebrew Ole /

Hebrew Stress Accent) and semata (glyphs indicated by abstract code 
points), lest we should be forced to add innumerable Hebrew code 
points.

On the SBLFonts list I was referred to this list for authoritative 
answers.  I will be most grateful for your considerate thoughts!

TIA,

Pim Rietbroek



From peterkirk@qaya.org Wed Dec  1 09:13:09 2004
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: Stress accent character encoding?
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On 01/12/2004 14:12, Karljurgen Feuerherm wrote:

><cough>
>
>authoritative?
>
>:)
>
>  
>
Well, on this list we might get a more or less authoritative statement 
from a Unicode officer or someone similar. The sort of statement which I 
would expect would be something like this: if the Hebrew stress accent 
has the same shape as Ole, and if it has no clearly different 
properties, it should be considered the same character. But of course 
nothing I say is in any way authoritative. And Pim has already seen this 
advice from me on the SBL Fonts list.

But it was not me who referred him here. The person who did warned him 
to expect "[typically conflicting but informative] feedback from 
Hebraists", but promised no authoritative answers.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter@qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



From mark@kli.org Wed Dec  1 10:07:27 2004
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Karljurgen Feuerherm wrote:

><cough>
>
>authoritative?
>
>:)
>  
>
Of course we're authoritative.  We're the top experts in the field.  If 
you don't believe us, just ask us and we'll say we are...

Anyway.  The "stress character" being referred to I haven't seen as a 
*standard* mark for stress.  I know the Rinat Yisrael prayer-book uses 
it to indicate penultimate stress, and maybe some others do as well, but 
it isn't (AFAIK) a really standard mark in Hebrew.  For things like the 
Rinat Yisrael, I see no reason why U+05AB, the OLE, can't be used, 
though it is just possible that we should encode a left-pointing 
counterpart to U+0350 COMBINING RIGHT ARROWHEAD ABOVE, just for 
completeness' sake.

The Rinat Yisrael also uses a symbol that looks something like an 
infinity sign (but more compressed) to indicate final stress.  Do we 
have something like this already?  I think it's idiosyncratic to that 
publisher, but if not, do we have to find something for it?

~mark

>  
>
>>>>Pim Rietbroek <pim.rietbroek@xs4all.nl> 30/11/2004 7:10:37 pm >>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>Dear List,
>
>As a newbie I apologize if this question has been posed and answered on
>
>this list before!  I could not find a FAQ.
>
>Do you wise persons have any advice on the proper Unicode code point to
>
>use for the Hebrew stress accent character, which in shape does not 
>differ from Hebrew OLE U+05AB?  Do we need encoding as U+05AB, or is a
>
>different tack needed?  I do not think that both the "Hebrew stress 
>accent character shaped as Hebrew Ole, U+05AB" and "Hebrew Ole, U+05AB"
>
>will ever occur within one and the same document differentiated in a 
>significant way--unless it be precisely this one--and I have been 
>reliably dissuaded to attempt to differentiate semantics (Hebrew Ole /
>
>Hebrew Stress Accent) and semata (glyphs indicated by abstract code 
>points), lest we should be forced to add innumerable Hebrew code 
>points.
>
>On the SBLFonts list I was referred to this list for authoritative 
>answers.  I will be most grateful for your considerate thoughts!
>
>TIA,
>
>Pim Rietbroek
>
>
>  
>

From peterkirk@qaya.org Wed Dec  1 10:47:26 2004
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: Stress accent character encoding?
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On 01/12/2004 16:07, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:

> ...
>
> The Rinat Yisrael also uses a symbol that looks something like an 
> infinity sign (but more compressed) to indicate final stress.  Do we 
> have something like this already?  I think it's idiosyncratic to that 
> publisher, but if not, do we have to find something for it?
>
Isn't this 0598 ZARQA or 05AE ZINOR? These will look very infinity-like 
unless printing is perfect.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter@qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



From kfeuerherm@wlu.ca Wed Dec  1 10:52:50 2004
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From: "Karljurgen Feuerherm" <kfeuerherm@wlu.ca>
To: <mark@kli.org>
Cc: <hebrew@unicode.org>, <pim.rietbroek@xs4all.nl>
Subject: [hebrew] Re: Stress accent character encoding?
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Actually, the stress marker resembliing OLE is the standard stress
marker used in teaching grammars (for Biblical Hebrew), AFAIK. Certainly
all the ones I've consulted or used.

K

>>> "Mark E. Shoulson" <mark@kli.org> 01/12/2004 11:07:13 am >>>
Karljurgen Feuerherm wrote:

><cough>
>
>authoritative?
>
>:)
>  
>
Of course we're authoritative.  We're the top experts in the field.  If

you don't believe us, just ask us and we'll say we are...

Anyway.  The "stress character" being referred to I haven't seen as a 
*standard* mark for stress.  I know the Rinat Yisrael prayer-book uses

it to indicate penultimate stress, and maybe some others do as well,
but 
it isn't (AFAIK) a really standard mark in Hebrew.  For things like the

Rinat Yisrael, I see no reason why U+05AB, the OLE, can't be used, 
though it is just possible that we should encode a left-pointing 
counterpart to U+0350 COMBINING RIGHT ARROWHEAD ABOVE, just for 
completeness' sake.

The Rinat Yisrael also uses a symbol that looks something like an 
infinity sign (but more compressed) to indicate final stress.  Do we 
have something like this already?  I think it's idiosyncratic to that 
publisher, but if not, do we have to find something for it?

~mark

>  
>
>>>>Pim Rietbroek <pim.rietbroek@xs4all.nl> 30/11/2004 7:10:37 pm >>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>Dear List,
>
>As a newbie I apologize if this question has been posed and answered
on
>
>this list before!  I could not find a FAQ.
>
>Do you wise persons have any advice on the proper Unicode code point
to
>
>use for the Hebrew stress accent character, which in shape does not 
>differ from Hebrew OLE U+05AB?  Do we need encoding as U+05AB, or is
a
>
>different tack needed?  I do not think that both the "Hebrew stress 
>accent character shaped as Hebrew Ole, U+05AB" and "Hebrew Ole,
U+05AB"
>
>will ever occur within one and the same document differentiated in a 
>significant way--unless it be precisely this one--and I have been 
>reliably dissuaded to attempt to differentiate semantics (Hebrew Ole
/
>
>Hebrew Stress Accent) and semata (glyphs indicated by abstract code 
>points), lest we should be forced to add innumerable Hebrew code 
>points.
>
>On the SBLFonts list I was referred to this list for authoritative 
>answers.  I will be most grateful for your considerate thoughts!
>
>TIA,
>
>Pim Rietbroek
>
>
>  
>

From peterkirk@qaya.org Wed Dec  1 12:22:54 2004
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To: Karljurgen Feuerherm <kfeuerherm@wlu.ca>
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: Stress accent character encoding?
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On 01/12/2004 16:52, Karljurgen Feuerherm wrote:

>Actually, the stress marker resembliing OLE is the standard stress
>marker used in teaching grammars (for Biblical Hebrew), AFAIK. Certainly
>all the ones I've consulted or used.
>
>  
>
It is also used in biblical Hebrew dictionaries, such as BDB.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter@qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



From mark@kli.org Wed Dec  1 21:12:17 2004
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        pim.rietbroek@xs4all.nl
Subject: [hebrew] Re: Stress accent character encoding?
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Peter Kirk wrote:

> On 01/12/2004 16:07, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
>
>> ...
>>
>> The Rinat Yisrael also uses a symbol that looks something like an 
>> infinity sign (but more compressed) to indicate final stress.  Do we 
>> have something like this already?  I think it's idiosyncratic to that 
>> publisher, but if not, do we have to find something for it?
>>
> Isn't this 0598 ZARQA or 05AE ZINOR? These will look very 
> infinity-like unless printing is perfect.
>
I used to think so, and I would have suggested those, but I really think 
it is two complete circles.  I'm not losing sleep over it, though, since 
it seems idiosyncratic (but I don't have a lot of exposure to other 
stress-marking conventions...)

~mark

From mark@kli.org Wed Dec  1 21:15:34 2004
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Peter Kirk wrote:

> On 01/12/2004 16:52, Karljurgen Feuerherm wrote:
>
>> Actually, the stress marker resembliing OLE is the standard stress
>> marker used in teaching grammars (for Biblical Hebrew), AFAIK. Certainly
>> all the ones I've consulted or used.
>>
>>  
>>
> It is also used in biblical Hebrew dictionaries, such as BDB.
>
All righty, then, it sounds like it probably should be encoded, then, 
since it sounds like this shouldn't be conflated with the OLE accent, 
but has a life of its own.  But it probably doesn't belong in the Hebrew 
block.  It should be in Combining Diacritics, complementing U+0350 (in 
one way) and U+0354 (in another).  Considering we have right arrowheads 
above and below, why should left arrowheads be restricted to below?

~mark

From rosennej@qsm.co.il Wed Dec  1 22:41:49 2004
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From: "Jony Rosenne" <rosennej@qsm.co.il>
To: <hebrew@unicode.org>
Subject: [hebrew] Re: Stress accent character encoding?
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 06:42:10 +0200
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This has been around for a long time (like centuries?). Everybody who knows
Hebrew knows about it. Just another example of the haphazard piecemeal
approach of Unicode to Hebrew issues.

Jony

> -----Original Message-----
> From: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org 
> [mailto:hebrew-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Mark E. Shoulson
> Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 5:16 AM
> To: Peter Kirk
> Cc: Karljurgen Feuerherm; hebrew@unicode.org; pim.rietbroek@xs4all.nl
> Subject: [hebrew] Re: Stress accent character encoding?
> 
> 
> Peter Kirk wrote:
> 
> > On 01/12/2004 16:52, Karljurgen Feuerherm wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, the stress marker resembliing OLE is the standard stress
> >> marker used in teaching grammars (for Biblical Hebrew), 
> AFAIK. Certainly
> >> all the ones I've consulted or used.
> >>
> >>  
> >>
> > It is also used in biblical Hebrew dictionaries, such as BDB.
> >
> All righty, then, it sounds like it probably should be encoded, then, 
> since it sounds like this shouldn't be conflated with the OLE accent, 
> but has a life of its own.  But it probably doesn't belong in 
> the Hebrew 
> block.  It should be in Combining Diacritics, complementing 
> U+0350 (in 
> one way) and U+0354 (in another).  Considering we have right 
> arrowheads 
> above and below, why should left arrowheads be restricted to below?
> 
> ~mark
> 
> 
> 


From peterkirk@qaya.org Thu Dec  2 05:43:49 2004
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: Stress accent character encoding?
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On 02/12/2004 03:15, Mark E. Shoulson wrote:

> Peter Kirk wrote:
>
>> On 01/12/2004 16:52, Karljurgen Feuerherm wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, the stress marker resembliing OLE is the standard stress
>>> marker used in teaching grammars (for Biblical Hebrew), AFAIK. 
>>> Certainly
>>> all the ones I've consulted or used.
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>> It is also used in biblical Hebrew dictionaries, such as BDB.
>>
> All righty, then, it sounds like it probably should be encoded, then, 
> since it sounds like this shouldn't be conflated with the OLE accent, 
> but has a life of its own.  But it probably doesn't belong in the 
> Hebrew block.  It should be in Combining Diacritics, complementing 
> U+0350 (in one way) and U+0354 (in another).  Considering we have 
> right arrowheads above and below, why should left arrowheads be 
> restricted to below?
>
Mark, I don't agree. Yes, this is a widely used convention, although 
only in Hebrew script as far as I know. But there is no evidence that 
the mark is graphically distinct from OLE. I can find only one 
publication which uses both the stress mark and OLE, which is GKC 
(Gesenius), which has an OLE on p.61 (section 15h), which looks 
identical to the stress mark elsewhere in this book e.g. on the facing 
page 60, over the Hebrew for Gerashayim. As for functional distinctions, 
both uses are a kind of accent (although strictly OLE does not mark 
stress, stress is on the following YORED); anyway, functional 
distinctions are not supposed to count for combining marks. And their 
interaction with other marks is identical.

I would change my mind if there was any evidence of the two marks being 
used in the same publication with different forms.

I note that the font SIL Ezra (the legacy encoded version, not the 
Unicode font Ezra SIL) has a distinct stress accent glyph. But I have no 
evidence of distinctive use.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter@qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



From kfeuerherm@wlu.ca Thu Dec  2 06:47:07 2004
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From: "Karljurgen Feuerherm" <kfeuerherm@wlu.ca>
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: Stress accent character encoding?
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I suppose only because no one has needed them yet...

>>> "Mark E. Shoulson" <mark@kli.org> 01/12/2004 10:15:31 pm >>>
Considering we have right arrowheads 
above and below, why should left arrowheads be restricted to below?

~mark

From kfeuerherm@wlu.ca Thu Dec  2 06:48:54 2004
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From: "Karljurgen Feuerherm" <kfeuerherm@wlu.ca>
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: Stress accent character encoding?
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I don't think one can just wholesale blame Unicode.

If anything, it would be the "fault" of those who submitted the
original proposal(s), who had tunnel vision and only considered their
own narrow needs....

(Note that "fault" is in quotes--I don't think there is a lot of value
in throwing blame around.)

>>> "Jony Rosenne" <rosennej@qsm.co.il> 01/12/2004 11:42:10 pm >>>
This has been around for a long time (like centuries?). Everybody who
knows
Hebrew knows about it. Just another example of the haphazard piecemeal
approach of Unicode to Hebrew issues.

Jony

From peterkirk@qaya.org Thu Dec  2 07:38:22 2004
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On 02/12/2004 12:48, Karljurgen Feuerherm wrote:

>I don't think one can just wholesale blame Unicode.
>
>If anything, it would be the "fault" of those who submitted the
>original proposal(s), who had tunnel vision and only considered their
>own narrow needs....
>
>(Note that "fault" is in quotes--I don't think there is a lot of value
>in throwing blame around.)
>
>  
>
If it's anyone's fault, it is perhaps the fault of those who have 
encouraged me and others to submit a number of separate proposals over 
the last year rather than to consolidate them into one large proposal to 
cover all outstanding Hebrew issues. And perhaps the fault of those who 
didn't object to this until after the event.

But you are right, there is no point in throwing blame around. Is there 
anything we can or should do to rectify the situation?

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter@qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



From k_isoetc@yahoo.com Mon Dec  6 16:41:45 2004
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From: "E. Keown" <k_isoetc@yahoo.com>
Subject: [hebrew] proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)
To: unicode@unicode.org, hebrew@unicode.org, rick@unicode.org
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      Elaine Keown
      in beautiful Vancouver, B.C.

Hi,

I wrote 3 Hebrew diacritics proposals between
May-July.  

One of them was incorrectly entered in the WG2 online
listing.  It needs the title below, which includes the
word 'Samaritan.'  The WG2 listing completely
misidentifies the proposal---the title listed has NO
relationship to my actual title.

I am still waiting on the font for these, but I think
part of it might be finished soon.  

1.
Proposal to add Samaritan Pointing to the UCS
http://www.lashonkodesh.org/samarpro.pdf
WG2 number:  N2748
2.
Proposal to add Palestinian Pointing to ISO/IEC 10646
http://www.lashonkodesh.org/palpro.pdf
3.
Proposal to add Babylonian Pointing to ISO/IEC 10646
http://www.lashonkodesh.org/bavelpro.pdf

When these items are added, plus a couple more, then
we will all be done with diacritics for *Hebrew* in
Unicode.  There are more punctuation symbols, more
number symbols, more abbreviation symbols.....

---Elaine

Other Items Supporting the Pointing Proposals Above:

Letter Requesting ‘Hebrew Extended’ Block (7/2004)
http://www.lashonkodesh.org/roadm08.pdf

The Aramaic and Hebrew Character Sets (June 2004)
http://www.lashonkodesh.org/hprelist.doc
NOTE:  this is an outdated list....


		
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Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. 
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From mark@kli.org Mon Dec  6 18:22:48 2004
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E. Keown wrote:

>      Elaine Keown
>      in beautiful Vancouver, B.C.
>
>Hi,
>
>I wrote 3 Hebrew diacritics proposals between
>May-July.  
>
>One of them was incorrectly entered in the WG2 online
>listing.  It needs the title below, which includes the
>word 'Samaritan.'  The WG2 listing completely
>misidentifies the proposal---the title listed has NO
>relationship to my actual title.
>
>I am still waiting on the font for these, but I think
>part of it might be finished soon.  
>
>1.
>Proposal to add Samaritan Pointing to the UCS
>http://www.lashonkodesh.org/samarpro.pdf
>WG2 number:  N2748
>  
>
This is the one I'm going to  comment on, since it's the one I know best.

I know that Michael Everson and I are working on a Samaritan proposal, 
which I think will sum up a lot of the points you have here, better.  
Things like:

- Vowel names.  My Samaritan informant preferred simply SAMARITAN VOWEL 
A / E / AA / O / U to the traditional Arabic names, on the grounds that 
the Arabic names aren't native Samaritan names either.  But scholars are 
probably familiar with them, so maybe we should keep the Arabic names 
and relegate the phonetics to the notes (especially since they are  used 
inconsistently in old texts).  But we probably should normalize to other 
Arabic transliteration: "FATHA AL-IHA" etc.  There are one or two other 
marks noted in Ben-Hayyim's "Grammar of Samaritan Hebrew."  Also, there 
are other Samaritan vowels, more recent proposals (such as O) which are 
in use by the Samaritan community in teaching materials, and also a few 
other vowel-like symbols not covered. (mark for indicating hard BA and 
FI, mark for YUT-like vowel hiatus, etc).

- Accents (te`amim, whatever you call them).  The names should probably 
follow Samaritan pronunciation (AFSAQ, ANGED, etc) and not Tiberian 
pronunciation based only on the consonants.  Also, these are not 
combining marks, so are not really diacritics.  I'm awaiting delivery of 
a Samaritan teaching Pentateuch which, from what I've heard, uses 
*another* entire system of cantillation marks to teach proper prosody.  
It's a relatively recent invention, but if it is in fact unlike 
punctuation we've seen, and if it is in fact in use, it should be 
considered.

- Other marks.  There are several other Samaritan punctuations on my 
list, such as an abbreviation mark, etc.

- Letters.  We have a list of the letters in Samaritan pronunciation.  
Despite the paleographical distinction between "majuscule" and 
"minuscule" forms, I do not believe that these constitute an actual case 
distinction.  There is no evidence of usage along the lines of case 
distinctions.  It's not "you use majuscules with these words or with 
such and such letters," it's "you use majuscules for formal texts."  
They're different fonts, not different alphabets.  My informant did not 
object when I observed this. 

We should probably also bounce these off some secular Samaritan scholars 
(again, with the newest versions).

>When these items are added, plus a couple more, then
>we will all be done with diacritics for *Hebrew* in
>Unicode.  There are more punctuation symbols, more
>number symbols, more abbreviation symbols.....
>  
>
There's a big and scary document I need to write about symbols for the 
Tetragrammaton, underpinning my proposal from years ago, and someone's 
going to have to figure out a good answer.  In an old list of proposed 
characters of yours, Elaine, you also mentioned the PETUHA and SETUMA 
symbols.  Those should probably be discussed; I can see arguments for 
and against those (mainly against, but not entirely).

~mark


From tiro@tiro.com Mon Dec  6 19:25:45 2004
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Subject: [hebrew] Petuha and Setuma [Was: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)]
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Mark E. Shoulson wrote:

> In an old list of proposed 
> characters of yours, Elaine, you also mentioned the PETUHA and SETUMA 
> symbols.  Those should probably be discussed; I can see arguments for 
> and against those (mainly against, but not entirely).

I turn my thoughts to these symbols from time to time, and increasingly I lean toward the 
view that they should be separately encoded. They are Hebrew letters, yes, but used as 
symbols for textual division and navigation purposes. In this respect, they are very 
similar to the Latin paragraph and section marks which began life as stylised P and S. The 
evolution of the graphical form of these Latin marks has distinguished them from P and S 
more significantly than the Hebrew Petuha and Setuma are distinguished from Pe and Samekh, 
but all four symbols have very similar textual functions.

As a font developer, I'm inclined to include separate glyphs for Petuha and Setuma in my 
Hebrew fonts, because they are typically smaller than the regular Hebrew letters, so need 
to be appropriately weighted (scaling the regular Hebrew letters down looks wretched, like 
scaling uppercase letters to get Latin smallcaps). This does not, in itself, indicate that 
they should be separately encoded: they *could* be treated as variant glyphs of the 
letters. But I'm struck that there is no obvious, existing layout feature with which to 
associate these glyphs: there is no layout feature for 'letters used as symbols' because 
such textual elements are normally separately encoded as 'letterlike symbols'.

So what we have are two symbols, which are letterlike, but which have non-alphabetic 
function, and which in quality typography require different glyphs from the letters that 
they resemble. The combination of different function and different form suggest to me 
different characters.

John Hudson

-- 

Tiro Typeworks        www.tiro.com
Vancouver, BC        tiro@tiro.com

Currently reading:
The Peasant of the Garonne, by Jacques Maritain
Art and faith, by Jacques Maritain & Jean Cocteau
Difficulites, by Ronald Knox & Arnold Lunn

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        Elaine in Vancouver

Dear Mark:

Thanks, I guess.

> This is the one I'm going to  comment on, since it's
> the one I know best. 
> I know that Michael Everson and I are working on a
> Samaritan proposal, 

It appears to me that my proposal came first, no?  By
some months...I have some material from Abraham Tal, a
well-known figure in Israel.  

So what's the significance of what you're saying,
politically?  

My work is based on scholarly info, and looks at the
marks as pointing---one of several sets of pointing
which will ultimately all need to be collated in.  

I didn't comment at all on the upper- or lower- case
issue because it wasn't clear at all to me how they
should be handled.  And still isn't.

Elaine


		
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From mark@kli.org Mon Dec  6 22:37:08 2004
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: Petuha and Setuma [Was: proposals I wrote (and also,
 didn't write)]
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John Hudson wrote:

> Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
>
>> In an old list of proposed characters of yours, Elaine, you also 
>> mentioned the PETUHA and SETUMA symbols.  Those should probably be 
>> discussed; I can see arguments for and against those (mainly against, 
>> but not entirely).
>
>
> ......
>
> So what we have are two symbols, which are letterlike, but which have 
> non-alphabetic function, and which in quality typography require 
> different glyphs from the letters that they resemble. The combination 
> of different function and different form suggest to me different 
> characters.

I could be convinced, yes.  Like I said, there's room to argue for 
them.  Many (most?) Bibles I've seen don't actually use a smaller font 
for these, but that's not much of a proof either way.  It would probably 
make text analysis easier to encode them separately (I got caught once 
when working with an electronic version of the BHS and I wanted to strip 
out everything but the consonants... and I forgot to check for isolated 
P and S since they're petuha and setuma.  Oops.  And when I converted to 
Unicode I wound up getting final PEH for all those petuhas.  Oops.)

~mark


From rosennej@qsm.co.il Tue Dec  7 00:06:18 2004
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: Petuha and Setuma [Was: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)]
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 08:06:40 +0200
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org 
> [mailto:hebrew-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Mark E. Shoulson
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 6:37 AM
> To: John Hudson
> Cc: E. Keown; hebrew@unicode.org
> Subject: [hebrew] Re: Petuha and Setuma [Was: proposals I 
> wrote (and also, didn't write)]
> 
> 
> John Hudson wrote:
> 
> > Mark E. Shoulson wrote:
> >
> >> In an old list of proposed characters of yours, Elaine, you also 
> >> mentioned the PETUHA and SETUMA symbols.  Those should probably be 
> >> discussed; I can see arguments for and against those 
> (mainly against, 
> >> but not entirely).
> >
> >
> > ......
> >
> > So what we have are two symbols, which are letterlike, but 
> which have 
> > non-alphabetic function, and which in quality typography require 
> > different glyphs from the letters that they resemble. The 
> combination 
> > of different function and different form suggest to me different 
> > characters.
> 
> I could be convinced, yes.  


I could not.


Jony


...


> 
> ~mark
> 
> 
> 
> 


From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Dec  7 00:15:44 2004
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: Petuha and Setuma [Was: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)]
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> From: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:hebrew-bounce@unicode.org] On
> Behalf Of John Hudson

> I turn my thoughts to these symbols from time to time, and
increasingly I
> lean toward the
> view that they should be separately encoded.

I've also wondered about them for a while, and gone back and forth as to
what would be best.


> But I'm struck that there is no obvious, existing layout feature
> with which to
> associate these glyphs: there is no layout feature for 'letters used
as
> symbols' because
> such textual elements are normally separately encoded as 'letterlike
> symbols'.

That's a good point that hasn't been brought up before, that I know.


> So what we have are two symbols, which are letterlike, but which have
non-
> alphabetic
> function, and which in quality typography require different glyphs
from
> the letters that
> they resemble. The combination of different function and different
form
> suggest to me
> different characters.

I can buy it. 

A counterargument is that in western civilization there are plenty of
cases of Latin or Greek letters used as symbols, some of which may have
special typographic requirements, but it has been decided not to encode
an endless stream of these. Of course, on the other side, there are a
number of these encoded as distinct characters in Unicode, and that
makes it easier for us dealing with font implementations and text
presentation software. But then, these are all legacy characters; I
suppose if none of them had been encoded, there might have been pressure
on us early on to come up with some alternative to deal with the
typographic issues. But then, they *are* encoded, and it's not all clear
that it would make sense to invent ad hoc features for letters as
symbols.



Peter Constable


From rosennej@qsm.co.il Tue Dec  7 10:34:57 2004
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From: "Jony Rosenne" <rosennej@qsm.co.il>
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: Petuha and Setuma [Was: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)]
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org 
> [mailto:hebrew-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of Peter Constable
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 8:16 AM
> To: hebrew@unicode.org
> Subject: [hebrew] Re: Petuha and Setuma [Was: proposals I 
> wrote (and also, didn't write)]
> 

...


> 
> A counterargument is that in western civilization there are plenty of
> cases of Latin or Greek letters used as symbols, some of 
> which may have
> special typographic requirements, but it has been decided not 
> to encode
> an endless stream of these. Of course, on the other side, there are a
> number of these encoded as distinct characters in Unicode, and that
> makes it easier for us dealing with font implementations and text
> presentation software. But then, these are all legacy characters; I
> suppose if none of them had been encoded, there might have 
> been pressure
> on us early on to come up with some alternative to deal with the
> typographic issues. But then, they *are* encoded, and it's 
> not all clear
> that it would make sense to invent ad hoc features for letters as
> symbols.
> 

Yes, we do need new legacy characters.

Seriously, they are regular Pe and Samekh, and Unicode does not encode
function, font, size, style nor weight.

Jony

> 
> 
> Peter Constable
> 
> 
> 
> 


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: unicode-bounce@unicode.org 
> [mailto:unicode-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of E. Keown
> Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:48 AM
> To: Philippe Verdy
> Cc: unicode@unicode.org; hebrew@unicode.org
> Subject: Re: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)
> 
> 
>       Elaine Keown
>       Vancouver
> 
...
> In the so-called 'deprecated' block, the 2nd Hebrew
> block in the BMP, are composed Hebrew points which I
> plan to go on using.  And I expect everyone else to go
> on using them also, all Hebraists.  We think they are
> needed for 'text representation' of shin and sin.  

You are free to use them as you wish, but you should note that they are
equivalent to and indistinguishable in practice from their decomposed
equivalents.

Jony

> 

...

> 
> Elaine
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 
> 
> 


From tiro@tiro.com Tue Dec  7 15:02:15 2004
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 didn't write)]
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Jony Rosenne wrote:

> Seriously, they are regular Pe and Samekh, and Unicode does not encode
> function, font, size, style nor weight.

Unicode sometimes encodes function, especially when married to distinct forms, and the 
'letterlike symbols' block is the prime example of this. This block contains numerous 
glyph variants of otherwise encoded alphabetic characters, separately encoded because of 
their function and/or the fact that they behave differently (e.g. do not share the 
directionality of the alphabetic character they resemble).

John Hudson

-- 

Tiro Typeworks        www.tiro.com
Vancouver, BC        tiro@tiro.com

Currently reading:
The Peasant of the Garonne, by Jacques Maritain
Art and faith, by Jacques Maritain & Jean Cocteau
Difficulites, by Ronald Knox & Arnold Lunn

From tiro@tiro.com Tue Dec  7 15:04:23 2004
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E. Keown wrote:

> In the so-called 'deprecated' block, the 2nd Hebrew
> block in the BMP, are composed Hebrew points which I
> plan to go on using.  And I expect everyone else to go
> on using them also, all Hebraists.  We think they are
> needed for 'text representation' of shin and sin.  

It really is a better idea to use the decomposed forms, and to allow text representation 
to be handled at the glyph level.

John Hudson

-- 

Tiro Typeworks        www.tiro.com
Vancouver, BC        tiro@tiro.com

Currently reading:
The Peasant of the Garonne, by Jacques Maritain
Art and faith, by Jacques Maritain & Jean Cocteau
Difficulites, by Ronald Knox & Arnold Lunn

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> From: unicode-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:unicode-bounce@unicode.org]
On Behalf
> Of E. Keown

> In the so-called 'deprecated' block, the 2nd Hebrew
> block in the BMP, are composed Hebrew points which I
> plan to go on using.  And I expect everyone else to go
> on using them also, all Hebraists.  We think they are
> needed for 'text representation' of shin and sin.

If you're referring to the Alphabetic Presentation Forms block (FBxx),
then I would say to use them when specifically required for
compatibility with a legacy implementation, but not otherwise. Note that
there are many implementations that do not use those characters (and in
particular FB2A or FB2B). Nor is it necessary to use the precomposed
representations of shin and sin (FB2A and FB2B) for adequate text
representation. Note especially that the normalized representations for
shin and sin, *including NFC,* do not use FB2A or FB2B.


Peter Constable


From peterkirk@qaya.org Tue Dec  7 17:11:53 2004
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)
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On 07/12/2004 21:02, John Hudson wrote:

> E. Keown wrote:
>
>> In the so-called 'deprecated' block, the 2nd Hebrew
>> block in the BMP, are composed Hebrew points which I
>> plan to go on using.  And I expect everyone else to go
>> on using them also, all Hebraists.  We think they are
>> needed for 'text representation' of shin and sin.  
>
>
> It really is a better idea to use the decomposed forms, and to allow 
> text representation to be handled at the glyph level.
>
Elaine, I agree on this one. Most Hebraists will do what Unicode already 
encourages, which is to use the decomposed forms. The only good reason 
to use the precomposed form is if you are using text analysis software 
which cannot recognise sin or shin with the dot separated from the base 
character within a normalised string.

Mind you, Unicode makes it very difficult for software to recognise that 
sin or shin by allowing up to three other combining marks to come 
between the base character and the dot.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter@qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/



From verdy_p@wanadoo.fr Mon Dec  6 17:58:48 2004
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From: "Philippe Verdy" <verdy_p@wanadoo.fr>
To: "E. Keown" <k_isoetc@yahoo.com>
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References: <20041206224139.73411.qmail@web53804.mail.yahoo.com>
Subject: [hebrew] Re: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)
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From: "E. Keown" <k_isoetc@yahoo.com>
> I wrote 3 Hebrew diacritics proposals between
> May-July. (...)
> 1.  Proposal to add Samaritan Pointing to the UCS
> http://www.lashonkodesh.org/samarpro.pdf
> WG2 number:  N2748
> 2. Proposal to add Palestinian Pointing to ISO/IEC 10646
> http://www.lashonkodesh.org/palpro.pdf
> 3. Proposal to add Babylonian Pointing to ISO/IEC 10646
> http://www.lashonkodesh.org/bavelpro.pdf
> (...)
> Other Items Supporting the Pointing Proposals Above:
> Letter Requesting 'Hebrew Extended' Block (7/2004)
> http://www.lashonkodesh.org/roadm08.pdf
> The Aramaic and Hebrew Character Sets (June 2004)
> http://www.lashonkodesh.org/hprelist.doc

Hello Ellaine,

In all your searches and in your proposals, di you try to segregate the 
proposed additional characters into two separate categories: those needed 
for inclusion within many modern studies, and those only used in very old 
scripts with many unknown or ambiguous properties?

I ask you that because not all the Hebrew Extended chracters may need an 
allocation in the BMP (in row U+08xx as suggested), and some may be placed 
in the SMP, in a separate Hebrew-Aramaic-Mandaic Extended block (including 
notably some punctuations signs or old numerals, or other diacritics needed 
for Phoenician and other extinct branches or variants).

Philippe.



From k_isoetc@yahoo.com Mon Dec  6 21:48:26 2004
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From: "E. Keown" <k_isoetc@yahoo.com>
Subject: [hebrew] Re: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)
To: Philippe Verdy <verdy_p@wanadoo.fr>
Cc: unicode@unicode.org, hebrew@unicode.org
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      Elaine Keown
      Vancouver

Dear Philippe and Lists:
 
> In all your searches and in your proposals, did you
> try to segregate the proposed additional characters
> into two separate categories: those needed 
> for inclusion within many modern studies, and those

The Samaritan marks are still used *today* by the
Samaritan communities in Israel and elsewhere.  

The other marks would be considered historical: 
Babylonian hasn't been used since the 1780s, and the
Palestinian ceased to be used a while before that.  

> I ask you that because not all the Hebrew Extended
> chracters may need an allocation in the BMP (in row
> U+08xx as suggested), and some may be placed 

Hebrew code points are already in 2 blocks.  

If the UTC had done any kind of appropriate research
in the late 1980s, they would have made the main
Hebrew block larger.  

In the so-called 'deprecated' block, the 2nd Hebrew
block in the BMP, are composed Hebrew points which I
plan to go on using.  And I expect everyone else to go
on using them also, all Hebraists.  We think they are
needed for 'text representation' of shin and sin.  

I asked for a 3rd block so there will be fewer core
blocks for Hebrew--I thought 2 blocks was already a
lot to have to deal with.  

I don't think it's fair to have Hebrew 'spread all
over the map.'  

> in the SMP, in a separate Hebrew-Aramaic-Mandaic
> Extended block (including notably some punctuations
> signs or old numerals, or

Is this proposed block from a new version of the
Roadmap?  I haven't read the Roadmap lately.

Elaine

__________________________________________________
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From rosennej@qsm.co.il Tue Dec  7 00:06:19 2004
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From: "Jony Rosenne" <rosennej@qsm.co.il>
Cc: <unicode@unicode.org>, <hebrew@unicode.org>
Subject: [hebrew] Samaritan
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 08:06:40 +0200
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I hope you also get a good Samaritan to participate.

Jony


From peterkirk@qaya.org Tue Dec  7 06:42:29 2004
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: Petuha and Setuma [Was: proposals I wrote (and also,
 didn't write)]
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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On 07/12/2004 01:23, John Hudson wrote:

> ...
>
> So what we have are two symbols, which are letterlike, but which have 
> non-alphabetic function, and which in quality typography require 
> different glyphs from the letters that they resemble. The combination 
> of different function and different form suggest to me different 
> characters.
>
An additional argument for separating them is that their form (and not 
only their size) is by no means always the same as samekh and 
(non-final) pe. This may be true in modern printed editions, but it is 
not true of older manuscripts. But already in the Biblia Rabbinica the 
forms are standardised to samekh and (non-final) pe, and the same size 
as the regular text.

In fact in the Leningrad codex and the rather later Lisbon codex petuha 
is not a symbol at all, but a layout feature; so are many instances of 
setuma. There is a samekh-like setuma symbol in Leningrad, but this is 
found in the margin e.g. at Genesis 2:4, 3:22, and not at the same 
places as setuma, so perhaps it has a rather different function; in 
Lisbon this is replaced by a blank line. In printed BHS it is 
represented by a regular-size samekh in the margin with an otherwise 
unknown diacritic, which in fact looks like a qamats on its side. So 
perhaps there is yet another new character here.

Attached images are of the mark at Genesis 2:4 in the Leningrad Codex 
and in BHS, with some surrounding text for size comparison. The BHS 
image is not very good - a closer look at the printed text shows that 
the combining mark is indeed a qamats on its side i.e. a vertical line 
attached to a teardrop shape rotated as if falling to the right.

-- 
Peter Kirk
peter@qaya.org (personal)
peterkirk@qaya.org (work)
http://www.qaya.org/


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--------------080209010104050806020708--


From jcowan@reutershealth.com Tue Dec  7 21:20:24 2004
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From: John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com>
To: "E. Keown" <k_isoetc@yahoo.com>
Cc: hebrew@unicode.org
Subject: [hebrew] Re: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)
Message-ID: <20041208032021.GG22638@skunk.reutershealth.com>
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E. Keown scripsit:

> Hebrew code points are already in 2 blocks.  

It's sheer numerology to think that it matters how many blocks
a script is represented in.  Numerology is certainly an important
factor in the development of Unicode, beginning with the assignment
of the ISO standard number, 10646, which is obviously a reference
to the standard number for ASCII, 646.  Nevertheless, it shouldn't
be given more weight than it deserves.

Latin already has six blocks and arguably seven, and it is tolerably
well supported given that complex-script support for Latin is rare.

> If the UTC had done any kind of appropriate research
> in the late 1980s, they would have made the main
> Hebrew block larger.  

At the time, the important thing was to get the necessities of Modern
Hebrew, that is the consonants and the Tiberian vowels, encoded.
Everything else could wait and did.

> I don't think it's fair to have Hebrew 'spread all
> over the map.'  

It's absolutely unimportant whether Hebrew is spread all over the map
or not.  The only possible issue at this date is whether it's entirely
encoded in the BMP or not, and even that issue is rapidly going away.

-- 
Is not a patron, my Lord [Chesterfield],        John Cowan
one who looks with unconcern on a man           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
struggling for life in the water, and when      http://www.reutershealth.com
he has reached ground encumbers him with help?          jcowan@reutershealth.com
        --Samuel Johnson

From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Dec  7 21:29:46 2004
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)
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Thread-Topic: [hebrew] Re: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)
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From: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
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> From: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:hebrew-bounce@unicode.org] On
> Behalf Of Peter Kirk


> Mind you, Unicode makes it very difficult for software to recognise
that
> sin or shin by allowing up to three other combining marks to come
> between the base character and the dot.

Of course, there is no reason why software designed to support Hebrew
text analysis could not ensure that data is stored in a form that keeps
the sin and shin dots adjacent to their base character, or apply such
ordering when doing string comparisons.


Peter Constable


From smontagu@smontagu.org Wed Dec  8 00:13:43 2004
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: Petuha and Setuma [Was: proposals I wrote (and also,
 didn't write)]
References: <20041206224139.73411.qmail@web53804.mail.yahoo.com> <41B4F7CC.4090305@kli.org> <41B5060F.4060700@tiro.com> <41B5A536.6000107@qaya.org>
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Peter Kirk wrote:
 > In fact in the Leningrad codex and the rather later Lisbon codex petuha
 > is not a symbol at all, but a layout feature; so are many instances of
 > setuma. There is a samekh-like setuma symbol in Leningrad, but this is
 > found in the margin e.g. at Genesis 2:4, 3:22, and not at the same
 > places as setuma, so perhaps it has a rather different function; in
 > Lisbon this is replaced by a blank line. In printed BHS it is
 > represented by a regular-size samekh in the margin with an otherwise
 > unknown diacritic, which in fact looks like a qamats on its side. So
 > perhaps there is yet another new character here.

I believe that this marks the division into "sedarim", shorter weekly 
readings used in the old Triennial Cycle. They are mentioned in the 
Masoretic notes at the end of the books of the Pentateuch.


From verdy_p@wanadoo.fr Wed Dec  8 08:45:07 2004
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)
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> Peter Kirk wrote to E. Keown, cc John Hudson, hebrew@unicode.org:
> Mind you, Unicode makes it very difficult for software to recognise that 
> sin or shin by allowing up to three other combining marks to come 
> between the base character and the dot.

I don't think it's a real problem, even if the standard normalisation forms use a ordering of diacritics based on strange combining classes. One can still apply another normalisation using different combining class values, while still maintaining their difference so that canonical equivalence still remains preserved.

However, problems will start to occur if one inserts a CGJ in the sequence of combining characters, because two of them appear to have a significant relative order, if the sin or shin dot is written after this pair of diacritics separated by a CGJ.
In such situation, to recognize sin or shin, one must act as if CGJ was fully ignorable, or get sure that the encoded text will always place the sin or shin dot before the first occurence of CGJ.

The alternative is to break the canonical equivalence rules, in favor of more "logical" reordering, where the text parser will determine which pairs of diacritics are really needing the CGJ separator, because their relative order is significant. This case will only happen when the two diacritics must be significantly ordered with the first one having a higher combining class than the second one, but they are followed by another diacritic with which neither of the two first diacritics interact. I think this case is extremely rare, but I have no statistics to demonstrate when this will happen (The visual interaction of sin/shin dots with other diacritics is mostly void, unless some rare diacritics are also present in the text).

The solution to this problem is not in Unicode itself but in orthographic conventions, and in input methods so that they will get sure to place these diacritics at the beginning of the string, even if they are finally reordered in the canonically equivalent normalized form.


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Subject: [hebrew] Re: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 13:13:45 -0800
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> From: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:hebrew-bounce@unicode.org] On
Behalf
> Of Philippe VERDY


> > Mind you, Unicode makes it very difficult for software to recognise
that
> > sin or shin by allowing up to three other combining marks to come
> > between the base character and the dot.

> However, problems will start to occur if one inserts a CGJ in the
sequence of
> combining characters...

The people that are likely to be putting CGJ within a Hebrew mark
sequence are likely to be creating their text with sin/shin dot
immediately after the base character. Therefore, I don't think the
concern you raise is particularly significant.


Peter Constable


From mark@kli.org Thu Dec  9 09:45:52 2004
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CC: Peter Kirk <peterkirk@qaya.org>, "E. Keown" <k_isoetc@yahoo.com>,
        John Hudson <tiro@tiro.com>, hebrew@unicode.org
Subject: [hebrew] Re: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)
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Philippe VERDY wrote:

>(The visual interaction of sin/shin dots with other diacritics is mostly void, unless some rare diacritics are also present in the text).
>
>  
>
Well, with some nice fonts these days.  But it is/was extremely common 
for the sin dot and a following holam to coalesce into one point, and 
ditto for a shin dot and a preceding holam.  The Jerusalem Bible, from 
the Koren publishing house, boasts of its type's ability to distinguish 
all the cases and never conflate holam-dot and shin/sin-dot.

~mark


From mark@kli.org Thu Dec  9 10:23:08 2004
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CC: Peter Kirk <peterkirk@qaya.org>, John Hudson <tiro@tiro.com>,
        "E. Keown" <k_isoetc@yahoo.com>, hebrew@unicode.org
Subject: [hebrew] Re: Petuha and Setuma [Was: proposals I wrote (and also,
 didn't write)]
References: <20041206224139.73411.qmail@web53804.mail.yahoo.com> <41B4F7CC.4090305@kli.org> <41B5060F.4060700@tiro.com> <41B5A536.6000107@qaya.org> <41B69B8A.4040001@smontagu.org>
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Simon Montagu wrote:

> Peter Kirk wrote:
> > In fact in the Leningrad codex and the rather later Lisbon codex petuha
> > is not a symbol at all, but a layout feature; so are many instances of
> > setuma. There is a samekh-like setuma symbol in Leningrad, but this is
> > found in the margin e.g. at Genesis 2:4, 3:22, and not at the same
> > places as setuma, so perhaps it has a rather different function; in
> > Lisbon this is replaced by a blank line. In printed BHS it is
> > represented by a regular-size samekh in the margin with an otherwise
> > unknown diacritic, which in fact looks like a qamats on its side. So
> > perhaps there is yet another new character here.
>
> I believe that this marks the division into "sedarim", shorter weekly 
> readings used in the old Triennial Cycle. They are mentioned in the 
> Masoretic notes at the end of the books of the Pentateuch.

This sounds right to me.

In some manuscripts the Samech is even more elaborately decorated.  Is 
it a new symbol?  Or a samech with a new type of combining mark on it?  
Or just a samech and the decorations are beyond the scope of Unicode?  
Don't look at me, I don't know either.

~mark


From tiro@tiro.com Thu Dec  9 13:56:43 2004
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: proposals I wrote (and also, didn't write)
References: <20041207031122.24505.qmail@web53805.mail.yahoo.com> <41B53291.5030808@kli.org> <41B544A3.9020801@tiro.com> <41B87C82.9080506@kli.org>
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Mark E. Shoulson wrote:

> (I suppose there could be a fuzzy line between those.  What do you say 
> about a mark that always appears at the end of a word kinda 
> over-and-to-the-left of the last letter?  Like, say, Zarqa in Masoretic 
> Hebrew?  Is it a spacing character after the word or a mark on the 
> letter?  In the case of Zarqa, it's clearly a combining mark on the 
> letter, based on other accents, printing, and general perception through 
> the years.  But in general?)

I don't know, I'm not a generalist :)

John Hudson

-- 

Tiro Typeworks        www.tiro.com
Vancouver, BC        tiro@tiro.com

Currently reading:
The Peasant of the Garonne, by Jacques Maritain
Art and faith, by Jacques Maritain & Jean Cocteau
Difficulites, by Ronald Knox & Arnold Lunn

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Subject: [hebrew] atnah hafukh
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The way the atnah hafukh proposal ended up, not only was a new character
added, but the representative glyph for 05AA is to be changed. What
recommendation is given to font vendors with existing fonts? If the
glyph for 05AA in an existing font is changed, that has an impact on
existing documents, which may be considered a problem by users.

=20

Comments from the proposers (Mark Shoulson, Peter Kirk, Michael
Everson)?

=20

Comments from any font vendors (e.g. John Hudson)?

=20

=20

=20

Thanks.

=20

Peter Constable

GIFT | GPTS | MICROSOFT

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>The way the atnah hafukh proposal ended up, =
not
only was a new character added, but the representative glyph for 05AA is =
to be
changed. What recommendation is given to font vendors with existing =
fonts? If the
glyph for 05AA in an existing font is changed, that has an impact on =
existing
documents, which may be considered a problem by users.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Comments from the proposers (Mark Shoulson, =
Peter
Kirk, Michael Everson)?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Comments from any font vendors (e.g. John =
Hudson)?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS"'>Thanks.</span></font></p>

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style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS"'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span =
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10.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS"'>Peter Constable</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS"'>GIFT <font =
color=3D"#999999"><span
style=3D'color:#999999'>|</span></font> GPTS <font =
color=3D"#999999"><span
style=3D'color:#999999'>|</span></font> <b><font color=3D"#336699"><span
style=3D'color:#336699;letter-spacing:1.0pt;font-weight:bold'>MICROSOFT</=
span></font></b></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

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Message-ID: <41C399EB.8070905@tiro.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 18:46:03 -0800
From: John Hudson <tiro@tiro.com>
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Subject: [hebrew] Re: atnah hafukh
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Peter Constable wrote:

> The way the atnah hafukh proposal ended up, not only was a new character 
> added, but the representative glyph for 05AA is to be changed. What 
> recommendation is given to font vendors with existing fonts? If the 
> glyph for 05AA in an existing font is changed, that has an impact on 
> existing documents, which may be considered a problem by users.

> Comments from any font vendors (e.g. John Hudson)?

Only that it is an issue about which I am quite confused and unsure how to handle. I asked 
the SBL Font Foundation folks what they preferred for the new version of SBL Hebrew, but 
received no response. I suspect they are no more certain that I am.

On the one hand, we have some attested variation in glyph form between atnah hafukh and 
yerah ben yomo -- the basis of the new character proposal --, but on the other hand we 
have a significant body of printed material in which the yerah ben yomo looks like an 
inverted atnah.

Currently, I'm using the same glyph for both characters. If I do replace the yerah ben 
yomo glyph (and I'm going to need to do more research to determine appropriate height, 
width and style for the SBL Hebrew Sephardic design), I will likely provide a stylistic 
alternates mapping to the atnah hafukh glyph, so that users with appropriate software have 
a choice how the yerah ben yomo looks.

Regards, John

-- 

Tiro Typeworks        www.tiro.com
Vancouver, BC        tiro@tiro.com

Currently reading:
A cup of coffee with my interrogator, by Ludvíc Vaculík
The peasant of the Garonne, by Jacques Maritain

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