From dean.snyder@jhu.edu Tue Feb 1 12:54:11 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:21:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from ipex3.johnshopkins.edu (ipex3.johnshopkins.edu [128.220.2.141]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j11Is9LU016394 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:54:11 -0600 Received: from jhuml3.jhu.edu (128.220.2.66) by ipex3.johnshopkins.edu with ESMTP; 01 Feb 2005 13:54:03 -0500 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="3.88,170,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="37994039:sNHT19045168" Received: from [10.0.1.2] (69-160-112-48.frdrmd.adelphia.net [69.160.112.48]) by jhuml3.jhu.edu (PMDF V6.2-X20 #30840) with ESMTPA id <0IB800KL5XU135@jhuml3.jhu.edu> for hebrew@unicode.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:54:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:54:12 -0500 From: Dean Snyder Subject: [hebrew] Xiamen & Phoenician To: hebrew@unicode.org Message-id: <20050201185412.8461@smtp.jhu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail version 5.1 build 4340 English Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2925 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: dean.snyder@jhu.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew I have 3 questions for John Hudson (or anyone who was at the Xiamen WG2 meeting), * What happened at the Xiamen meeting with regards to Phoenician? * What is your opinion about what happened to it there? * How do we go forward in stopping this proposal? Respectfully, Dean A. Snyder Assistant Research Scholar Manager, Digital Hammurabi Project Computer Science Department Whiting School of Engineering 218C New Engineering Building 3400 North Charles Street Johns Hopkins University Baltimore, Maryland, USA 21218 office: 410 516-6850 cell: 717 817-4897 www.jhu.edu/digitalhammurabi/ http://users.adelphia.net/~deansnyder/ From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Feb 1 15:00:46 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:14:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j11L0jad012723 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:00:46 -0600 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:00:40 -0800 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:00:38 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [hebrew] Re: Xiamen & Phoenician Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:00:38 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [hebrew] Xiamen & Phoenician Thread-Index: AcUInLFzkGHbSnqhRg2Zyh8PoeWPFgAA2/RQ From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Feb 2005 21:00:38.0874 (UTC) FILETIME=[1538FBA0:01C508A1] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id j11L0jad012723 X-archive-position: 2926 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: petercon@microsoft.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew > From: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:hebrew-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf > Of Dean Snyder > I have 3 questions for John Hudson (or anyone who was at the Xiamen WG2 > meeting), John was not there. > * What happened at the Xiamen meeting with regards to Phoenician? It was re-affirmed for inclusion in amendment 2. Germany's ballot comments were rejected by WG2. (The working group did not fail to notice that the expert contribution referenced in Germany's ballot comments to support their opposition to encoding Phoenician, N2097, in fact provides positive support for encoding Phoenician precisely for the benefit of the user community for which these characters are intended.) > * What is your opinion about what happened to it there? It is clear that WG2 has no problem with encoding Phoenician, and sees no reason to remove it. > * How do we go forward in stopping this proposal? I don't know. Accept the fact that the proposal was accepted six months ago and isn't going to be stopped? Peter Constable From peterkirk@qaya.org Tue Feb 1 17:48:24 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 01 Feb 2005 20:07:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from pan.hu-pan.com (hu-pan.com [67.15.6.3]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j11NmN6K027851 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:48:24 -0600 Received: from 213-162-124-237.peterk253.adsl.metronet.co.uk ([213.162.124.237] helo=[10.0.0.1]) by pan.hu-pan.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1Cw7kr-0001MH-OS; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 23:48:22 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.300 [265.7.6]); Tue, 01 Feb 2005 23:48:33 +0000 Message-ID: <42001551.9080708@qaya.org> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 23:48:33 +0000 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041217 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de To: Peter Constable CC: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Xiamen & Phoenician References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - pan.hu-pan.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - unicode.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - qaya.org X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-archive-position: 2927 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 01/02/2005 21:00, Peter Constable wrote: > ... > >> * How do we go forward in stopping this proposal? >> >> > >I don't know. Accept the fact that the proposal was accepted six months >ago and isn't going to be stopped? > > > The proposal was, I understand, rejected by at least two voting members of WG2, and their objections have not been resolved to their satisfaction. Such proposals can proceed only with unanimity. That means that the proposal has not been accepted, and it will be stopped, at least unless those who are trying to steamroller it through instead make some effort to understand and take into account the growing objections. -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.6 - Release Date: 27/01/2005 From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Feb 1 18:16:15 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 01 Feb 2005 20:08:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.123]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j120GENd004977 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:16:15 -0600 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:16:09 -0800 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1289); Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:16:07 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [hebrew] Re: Xiamen & Phoenician Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:16:07 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [hebrew] Re: Xiamen & Phoenician Thread-Index: AcUIuIbEyOnnRO6vR+K/FbUs5Qxs6AAAW6+w From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Feb 2005 00:16:07.0389 (UTC) FILETIME=[63F658D0:01C508BC] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id j120GENd004977 X-archive-position: 2928 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: petercon@microsoft.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew > From: Peter Kirk [mailto:peterkirk@qaya.org] > The proposal was, I understand, rejected by at least two voting members > of WG2, and their objections have not been resolved to their > satisfaction. To set the record straight: - At WG2 Meeting 45 in June 2004, there was a unanimously-accepted resolution to encode Phoenician in Amendment 2. - In balloting of PDAM2, Germany voted no, with comments that they would like to have Phoenician removed. (And I mentioned that they appealed to an expert contribution that actually did not support their position.) - In balloting of PDAM2, Canada did not comment on Phoenician. They voted "no" on PDAM2 for issues having nothing to do with Phoenician. - Within a week of M46 in Xiamen, a contribution from experts in Canada was submitted that questioned whether Phoenician should be encoded, and suggested a different block name if it were encoded. This was not a ballot comment and had no bearing on Canada's vote coming into M46, however. - At M46, Germany was not present, so there was no opportunity to discuss with them whether their concerns could be accommodated and whether their vote could be changed; thus, their vote on PDAM2 remained "no". WG2 discussed their ballot comments, and agreed on a disposition that rejects their comments. - At M46, Canada's ballot comments (unrelated to Phoenician) were considered; some were accommodated, while others were rejected. Because certain concerns (unrelated to Phoenician) were not resolved to their liking, Canada's vote on PDAM2 remained "no". When it came to Phoenician, the suggestion from Hudson and Feuerheim that Phoenician not be encoded was rejected on the basis that that is not what the majority within WG2 wants to do; the suggestion that a different block name be used was rejected on the basis that it was made on too short notice, and that Canada should use the next round of balloting to pursue this issue if they want. Canada's vote on PDAM2 remained "no", but again that was based on issues unrelated to Phoenician. > Such proposals can proceed only with unanimity. That means > that the proposal has not been accepted, and it will be stopped, at > least unless those who are trying to steamroller it through instead make > some effort to understand and take into account the growing objections. That simply is incorrect. In spite of "no" votes from Canada and Germany, the PDAM2 ballot passed. A new draft will be prepared in light of the disposition of comments accepted by WG2 and circulated for FPDAM balloting. The proposal to encode Phoenician *was* accepted last June, and it has been reaffirmed. A consensus has been established within WG2 and is extremely unlikely to change. Peter Constable From tiro@tiro.com Tue Feb 1 19:22:18 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 01 Feb 2005 20:09:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net (outbound04.telus.net [199.185.220.223]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j121MHAH031213 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:22:18 -0600 Received: from [64.180.191.178] by priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP id <20050202012211.BVCH5528.priv-edtnes28.telusplanet.net@[64.180.191.178]>; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:22:11 -0700 Message-ID: <42002B53.6060102@tiro.com> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 17:22:27 -0800 From: John Hudson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable CC: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Xiamen & Phoenician References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2929 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Peter Constable wrote: > (The working group did not fail to notice > that the expert contribution referenced in Germany's ballot comments to > support their opposition to encoding Phoenician, N2097, in fact provides > positive support for encoding Phoenician precisely for the benefit of > the user community for which these characters are intended.) It does not. N2097 acknowledges that documents in favour of the encoding, written or compiled by Michael Everson and Deborah Anderson, make the claim that 'Phoenician' is of independent importance to Indo-Europeanists, but to say that this represents 'positive support' for encoding Phoenician is begging the question, because the whole thrust of N2097 is that decisions about *script identity* should not be based on the accident of their historical importance to alien cultures. The identity of Semitic scripts should be determined in a Semitic context, not in an Indo-European context. The fact that I did not directly challenge the perceived importance of the encoding to Indo-Europeanists should not have been taken as positive support. As I've stated several times, I'm not about to lose any sleep over the encoding of Phoenician, and wouldn't have bothered to respond to this thread if I didn't think that N2097 was misrepresented by a selective reading. The sky is not going to fall if Phoenician is encoded, but as I wrote in N2097 I have concerns about future encoding of ancient scripts if their identity is to be determined by their importance outside of their own cultural, linguistic and historical milieu. I've documented why I think Phoenician is an unnecessary encoding, and why I do not think there are any compelling technical reasons either for or against the encoding (specific user groups have extra work to do whether it is encoded or not): it is purely a matter of script identity. So Unicode and ISO 10646 are going to encode something that some people don't think is a script and which, undeniably, has an ambiguous relationship to an already encoded script, especially with regard to Palaeo-Hebrew texts. It's not the end of the world, but I think we need, collectively, to consider how we determine script identity when considering ancient writing systems. That's all I have to say on the topic and, sorry Dean, I'm not signing up for any further opposition to the Phoenician encoding. I've said my piece. John Hudson -- Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com Currently reading: Library: an unquiet history, by Matthew Battles The peasant of the Garonne, by Jacques Maritain From tiro@tiro.com Tue Feb 1 20:23:36 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 01 Feb 2005 20:34:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j122NZS5005590 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:23:36 -0600 Received: from [64.180.191.178] by priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP id <20050202022330.KBLI5794.priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net@[64.180.191.178]> for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:23:30 -0700 Message-ID: <420039B1.3090706@tiro.com> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 18:23:45 -0800 From: John Hudson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Xiamen & Phoenician References: <42001551.9080708@qaya.org> In-Reply-To: <42001551.9080708@qaya.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2930 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Peter Kirk wrote: > The proposal was, I understand, rejected by at least two voting members > of WG2, and their objections have not been resolved to their > satisfaction. Such proposals can proceed only with unanimity. That means > that the proposal has not been accepted, and it will be stopped, at > least unless those who are trying to steamroller it through instead make > some effort to understand and take into account the growing objections. No, Peter, that is not how it works. As a new member of the Canadian body, I'm still trying to wrap my head around how WG2 actually functions, but consensus does not imply unanimity. As Peter C notes, N2097 was not a ballot comment, and Canada's vote against PDAM2 had nothing to do with Phoenician. John Hudson -- Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com Currently reading: Library: an unquiet history, by Matthew Battles The peasant of the Garonne, by Jacques Maritain From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Feb 1 22:08:16 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 01 Feb 2005 22:20:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.3.125]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1248Gj0031183 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:08:16 -0600 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1289); Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:08:16 -0800 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1289); Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:08:14 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [hebrew] Re: Xiamen & Phoenician Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:08:19 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [hebrew] Re: Xiamen & Phoenician Thread-Index: AcUIxaAZP4MWUChCTuGX/yNw7eUdqQAC53Ug From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Feb 2005 04:08:14.0326 (UTC) FILETIME=[D1104960:01C508DC] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id j1248Gj0031183 X-archive-position: 2931 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: petercon@microsoft.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew > From: John Hudson [mailto:tiro@tiro.com] > > (The working group did not fail to notice > > that the expert contribution referenced in Germany's ballot comments to > > support their opposition to encoding Phoenician, N2097, in fact provides > > positive support for encoding Phoenician precisely for the benefit of > > the user community for which these characters are intended.) > > It does not. N2097 acknowledges that documents in favour of the encoding, > written or > compiled by Michael Everson and Deborah Anderson, make the claim that > 'Phoenician' is of > independent importance to Indo-Europeanists,... > but as I wrote in N2097... You're talking about a different document than I was referring to. N2097 was written in 1999, long before anything submitted by Deborah Anderson; it makes no reference whatsoever to Indo-European. What that document *does* argue is that it is not necessary to encode each distinct variant in the continuum of old Semitic writing, and that most authors have transcribed paleographic texts using Latin transliterations, with transcription using square Hebrew characters used for Phoenician and Aramaic texts. But it also states, "It can be sensible to generate, for a limited field of application, standardized character forms that can be used in print. This is the case, e.g. for the Ugaritic cuneiform, the Old Persian cuneiform, for Phoenician and for the Old South Arabian alphabet... In a very limited range, possibly for introductory studies for teaching purposes a character reservoir of main characters could be defined (ca. 550 characters), that, in a standardized form, could be used for specific purposes." (The reference to 550 characters would include a few different standardized forms, including e.g. Ugaritic cuneiform in addition to Phoenician.) This is the expert contribution that Germany made reference to, and it clearly allows for "standardized character forms that can be used in print... for Phoenician... used for specific purposes." Peter Constable From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Feb 1 22:14:49 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 01 Feb 2005 23:27:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j124EmSw032279 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:14:49 -0600 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:14:43 -0800 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1289); Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:14:41 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [hebrew] Re: Xiamen & Phoenician Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 20:14:46 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [hebrew] Re: Xiamen & Phoenician Thread-Index: AcUIxaAZP4MWUChCTuGX/yNw7eUdqQAF7x1Q From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Feb 2005 04:14:41.0561 (UTC) FILETIME=[B7DFA890:01C508DD] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id j124EmSw032279 X-archive-position: 2932 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: petercon@microsoft.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew I mentioned a document referenced in Germany's PDAM2 ballot comments, N2097. John Hudson thought I was referring to a recent submission by him and Karljürgen Feuerheim, which was a different document, N2907. Given the numbers, I can see why there was some confusion. Peter Constable From tiro@tiro.com Tue Feb 1 22:40:36 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 01 Feb 2005 23:28:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j124eZgg007122 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:40:36 -0600 Received: from [64.180.191.178] by priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP id <20050202044030.UYNL5794.priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net@[64.180.191.178]>; Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:40:30 -0700 Message-ID: <420059CD.3070009@tiro.com> Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 20:40:45 -0800 From: John Hudson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable CC: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Xiamen & Phoenician References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2933 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Peter Constable wrote: > You're talking about a different document than I was referring to. N2097 > was written in 1999, long before anything submitted by Deborah Anderson; > it makes no reference whatsoever to Indo-European. My apologies: I transposed two numbers and thought you were referring to N2907, which is also an expert contribution on Phoenician. John Hudson -- Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com Currently reading: Library: an unquiet history, by Matthew Battles The peasant of the Garonne, by Jacques Maritain From peterkirk@qaya.org Wed Feb 2 05:56:10 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Wed, 02 Feb 2005 06:48:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from pan.hu-pan.com (hu-pan.com [67.15.6.3]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j12Bu6td005802 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 05:56:10 -0600 Received: from 213-162-124-237.peterk253.adsl.metronet.co.uk ([213.162.124.237] helo=[10.0.0.1]) by pan.hu-pan.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1CwJ76-00034w-GU; Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:56:04 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.300 [265.7.6]); Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:56:16 +0000 Message-ID: <4200BFE0.6040502@qaya.org> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:56:16 +0000 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041217 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de To: Peter Constable CC: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: Xiamen & Phoenician References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - pan.hu-pan.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - unicode.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - qaya.org X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-archive-position: 2934 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 02/02/2005 00:16, Peter Constable wrote: > ... > > >To set the record straight: > > ... Thanks for the clarification. > > >>Such proposals can proceed only with unanimity. That means >>that the proposal has not been accepted, and it will be stopped, at >>least unless those who are trying to steamroller it through instead >> >> >make > > >>some effort to understand and take into account the growing >> >> >objections. > >That simply is incorrect. In spite of "no" votes from Canada and >Germany, the PDAM2 ballot passed. A new draft will be prepared in light >of the disposition of comments accepted by WG2 and circulated for FPDAM >balloting. The proposal to encode Phoenician *was* accepted last June, >and it has been reaffirmed. A consensus has been established within WG2 >and is extremely unlikely to change. > > > If (and I know this is uncertain) Canada and Germany, and perhaps some other countries, continue to vote against the FPDAM, on the grounds that their continuing objections to Phoenician, N'Ko etc have not been properly addressed, will the standard nevertheless be pushed through? If so, this is not consensus, this is steamrollering. -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.6 - Release Date: 27/01/2005 From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Feb 2 09:11:22 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Wed, 02 Feb 2005 09:16:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.123]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j12FBLkQ032240 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:11:22 -0600 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:11:16 -0800 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:11:16 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [hebrew] Re: Xiamen & Phoenician Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:11:14 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [hebrew] Re: Xiamen & Phoenician Thread-Index: AcUJHi4n6wSrjhbiSxmFx7MNE6TnLgAGimHA From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Feb 2005 15:11:16.0391 (UTC) FILETIME=[7105AB70:01C50939] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id j12FBLkQ032240 X-archive-position: 2935 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: petercon@microsoft.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew > From: Peter Kirk [mailto:peterkirk@qaya.org] > If (and I know this is uncertain) Canada and Germany, and perhaps some > other countries, continue to vote against the FPDAM, on the grounds that > their continuing objections to Phoenician, N'Ko etc have not been > properly addressed, Only Germany voted against PDAM2 on the basis of objections to Phoenician. It is indeed uncertain that either country would vote no on FPDAM2. > will the standard nevertheless be pushed through? If > so, this is not consensus, this is steamrollering. The final votes on PDAM2 were 9 for, 2 against. If that's how the voting stands on FPDAM2, then it will indeed succeed. That is not steamrolling; it is an adequate consensus. ISO requires an adequate consensus, not unanimity. Peter Constable From jcowan@reutershealth.com Wed Feb 2 11:29:49 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Wed, 02 Feb 2005 11:29:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.reutershealth.com ([65.246.141.36]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j12HTnw2022986 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:29:49 -0600 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id j12HThde021704 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:29:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:29:43 -0500 From: John Cowan To: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] ADMIN: Mr. Snyder's message to hebrew@unicode.org Message-ID: <20050202172943.GQ3214@skunk.reutershealth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id j12HTnw2022986 X-archive-position: 2936 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: jcowan@reutershealth.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew I received a submission from Mr. Dean Snyder for this list (hebrew@unicode) today. The text of his submission appears below marked with "> "; my comments, which constitute my last word on the subject, appear without. > To whomever is censoring emails to this list: That would be me, as Mr. Snyder very well knows. > Your slow response times and the nature of your censorship are > unacceptable. Unacceptable to Mr. Snyder, that is. Very well. My authority on this list is plenipotentiary, and what is or is not acceptable to Mr. Snyder is of no concern to me. > At 1:00 pm yesterday I posted a reply to Peter Constable's [epithet > deleted] reply to my query about what happened to Phoenician in > Xiamen. You have yet to post my reply, 21 hours later. Mr. Snyder's message was refused by me, and I sent him an email saying why. If he did not receive that email, he can request a copy privately. > You have repeatedly allowed respondents with whom you agree to post > sarcastic, ad hominem replies but have censored replies from those > with whom you disagree. This is blatant, self-serving pettiness. There are emails which *may* be interpreted as snide; I take those under advisement, and post them if I think they contain sufficient information to be useful. There are other emails which contain, in my judgment, only rude, hostile, and potentially slanderous remarks. Those I reject. I have only had to reject two such messages so far; the other was written by one of Mr. Snyder's opponents, as it happens. I reject the preposterous claim that my decisions are prejudiced or self-serving. > I recommend that everyone on this list subscribe to the Phoenician > email list , hosted by Marc K)B�ster, > where we can discuss things in an open forum. Neither the Unicode Consortium nor I have anything to say for or against this suggestion. > [And Rick and John, if you do not allow this message to be posted > to the Hebrew list, I'll just email everyone directly. Mr. Snyder may, if he likes, choose to spam the members of this list, who will in turn decide individually what to do about it. Mr. Snyder's contact details, as provided by himself on his email, appear below. > Your efforts to stop open discussion will not succeed; in fact, your > attempts at exercising total control will lead to your loss of any > control at all.] Mr. Snyder may conduct what he is pleased to call "open discussion" anywhere he likes, except on the Unicode Consortium's mail server. Contributions by him to *this* list which are serious and constructive, on the other hand, are invited. > Dean A. Snyder > > Assistant Research Scholar > Manager, Digital Hammurabi Project > Computer Science Department > Whiting School of Engineering > 218C New Engineering Building > 3400 North Charles Street > Johns Hopkins University > Baltimore, Maryland, USA 21218 > > office: 410 516-6850 > cell: 717 817-4897 > www.jhu.edu/digitalhammurabi/ > http://users.adelphia.net/~deansnyder/ -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org www.reutershealth.com www.ccil.org/~cowan If a traveler were informed that such a man [as Lord John Russell] was leader of the House of Commons, he may well begin to comprehend how the Egyptians worshiped an insect. --Benjamin Disraeli From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Feb 2 12:26:12 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Wed, 02 Feb 2005 13:34:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail1.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.3.125]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j12IQCXN031841 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:26:12 -0600 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1289); Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:26:06 -0800 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:26:06 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [hebrew] Re: ADMIN: Mr. Snyder's message to hebrew@unicode.org Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:26:05 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [hebrew] ADMIN: Mr. Snyder's message to hebrew@unicode.org Thread-Index: AcUJTVPs+kMP69zfQO+WHtOw+P2aYgABkpPw From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Feb 2005 18:26:06.0441 (UTC) FILETIME=[A8D5BD90:01C50954] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id j12IQCXN031841 X-archive-position: 2937 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: petercon@microsoft.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew > From: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:hebrew-bounce@unicode.org] On > Behalf Of John Cowan > I received a submission from Mr. Dean Snyder... > > At 1:00 pm yesterday I posted a reply to Peter Constable's [epithet > > deleted] reply to my query about what happened to Phoenician in > > Xiamen. You have yet to post my reply, 21 hours later. ... > > You have repeatedly allowed respondents with whom you agree to post > > sarcastic, ad hominem replies... Did Dean actually find my initial [epithet deleted ??!] response to his query or any subsequent posts from me to be sarcastic or ad hominem? I thought I was providing pretty much non-sarcastic, fact-based replies. I suppose he could find ways to read sarcasm into my comments, but ad hominence? I don't get it. Peter Constable From dean.snyder@jhu.edu Fri Feb 11 15:22:24 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:12:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from ipex1.johnshopkins.edu (ipex1.johnshopkins.edu [162.129.8.141]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1BLMN1w014714 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:22:24 -0600 Received: from jhuml3.jhu.edu (128.220.2.66) by ipex1.johnshopkins.edu with ESMTP; 11 Feb 2005 16:22:17 -0500 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="3.88,195,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="43733563:sNHT19102208" Received: from [10.0.1.2] (69-160-112-48.frdrmd.adelphia.net [69.160.112.48]) by jhuml3.jhu.edu (PMDF V6.2-X20 #30840) with ESMTPA id <0IBR0036VND3IL@jhuml3.jhu.edu> for hebrew@unicode.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:22:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:22:38 -0500 From: Dean Snyder Subject: [hebrew] Anderson's n2909 To: Hebrew Message-id: <20050211212238.24531@smtp.jhu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail version 5.1 build 4340 English Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2938 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: dean.snyder@jhu.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Deborah Anderson collected 6 letters in support of encoding Phoenician which were presented at the Xiamen meeting. You can read her document, with the letters, here: >Anderson: "As the letters attest, Phoenician is needed by those studying >the history of the alphabet, ancient Indo-European languages, the Punic >(Cathaginian) civilization, and Phoenician and Punic inscriptions >(including those found on coins). ... The use of Hebrew encoding with a >required Phoenician font would cause severe obstacles for these users." If you read all 6 letters it becomes abundantly clear that the only argument given by all is that "we want this encoding because our readers may not have a Phoenician font and this would look bad in Hebrew." This, of course, proves the point we have been making all along that THIS IS A FONT ISSUE. Unicode/ISO 10646 is opening a Pandora's box if it proceeds along this course. Dean A. Snyder Assistant Research Scholar Manager, Digital Hammurabi Project Computer Science Department Whiting School of Engineering 218C New Engineering Building 3400 North Charles Street Johns Hopkins University Baltimore, Maryland, USA 21218 office: 410 516-6850 cell: 717 817-4897 www.jhu.edu/digitalhammurabi/ http://users.adelphia.net/~deansnyder/ From dean.snyder@jhu.edu Fri Feb 11 15:35:30 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:12:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from ipex1.johnshopkins.edu (ipex1.johnshopkins.edu [162.129.8.141]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1BLZU5v015826 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:35:30 -0600 Received: from jhuml3.jhu.edu (128.220.2.66) by ipex1.johnshopkins.edu with ESMTP; 11 Feb 2005 16:35:25 -0500 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="3.88,195,1102309200"; d="scan'208"; a="43735492:sNHT18596656" Received: from [10.0.1.2] (69-160-112-48.frdrmd.adelphia.net [69.160.112.48]) by jhuml3.jhu.edu (PMDF V6.2-X20 #30840) with ESMTPA id <0IBR003TNNYVIL@jhuml3.jhu.edu> for hebrew@unicode.org; Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:35:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:35:38 -0500 From: Dean Snyder Subject: [hebrew] WG2 mailing list To: Undisclosed-Recipient: ; Message-id: <20050211213538.2314@smtp.jhu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail version 5.1 build 4340 English Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2939 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: dean.snyder@jhu.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew It might be useful to contact some of these WG2 members and explain what is going on with the proposal to encode Phoenician: Respectfully, Dean A. Snyder Assistant Research Scholar Manager, Digital Hammurabi Project Computer Science Department Whiting School of Engineering 218C New Engineering Building 3400 North Charles Street Johns Hopkins University Baltimore, Maryland, USA 21218 office: 410 516-6850 cell: 717 817-4897 www.jhu.edu/digitalhammurabi/ http://users.adelphia.net/~deansnyder/ From smontagu@smontagu.org Tue Feb 15 17:40:22 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:42:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from pillage.dreamhost.com (postfix@pillage.dreamhost.com [66.33.213.23]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1FNeLo2018193 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:40:21 -0600 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (l192-115-16-30.broadband.actcom.net.il [192.115.16.30]) by pillage.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D10DA1496A7; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:40:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <42128857.9050007@smontagu.org> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 01:40:07 +0200 From: Simon Montagu User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0RC1 (Windows/20041201) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dean Snyder Cc: Hebrew Subject: [hebrew] Re: Anderson's n2909 References: <20050211212238.24531@smtp.jhu.edu> In-Reply-To: <20050211212238.24531@smtp.jhu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2940 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: smontagu@smontagu.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Dean Snyder wrote: > If you read all 6 letters it becomes abundantly clear that the only > argument given by all is that "we want this encoding because our readers > may not have a Phoenician font and this would look bad in Hebrew." This, > of course, proves the point we have been making all along that THIS IS A > FONT ISSUE. WADR, this is one of the most circular arguments that I have ever come across. From dean.snyder@jhu.edu Tue Feb 15 20:24:00 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:00:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from ipex1.johnshopkins.edu (ipex1.johnshopkins.edu [162.129.8.141]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j1G2NxNi019921 for ; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:23:59 -0600 Received: from jhuml3.jhu.edu (128.220.2.66) by ipex1.johnshopkins.edu with ESMTP; 15 Feb 2005 21:23:54 -0500 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="3.90,87,1107752400"; d="scan'208"; a="44485473:sNHT18596024" Received: from [10.0.1.2] (69-160-112-48.frdrmd.adelphia.net [69.160.112.48]) by jhuml3.jhu.edu (PMDF V6.2-X20 #30840) with ESMTPA id <0IBZ00AUTFZDRV@jhuml3.jhu.edu> for hebrew@unicode.org; Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:23:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:23:55 -0500 From: Dean Snyder Subject: [hebrew] Re: Anderson's n2909 In-reply-to: <42128857.9050007@smontagu.org> To: Hebrew Message-id: <20050216022355.7571@smtp.jhu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail version 5.1 build 4340 English Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: <42128857.9050007@smontagu.org> X-archive-position: 2941 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: dean.snyder@jhu.edu Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Simon Montagu wrote at 1:40 AM on Wednesday, February 16, 2005: >Dean Snyder wrote: > >> If you read all 6 letters it becomes abundantly clear that the only >> argument given by all is that "we want this encoding because our readers >> may not have a Phoenician font and this would look bad in Hebrew." This, >> of course, proves the point we have been making all along that THIS IS A >> FONT ISSUE. > >WADR, this is one of the most circular arguments that I have ever come >across. How so? I'd be curious to see your explanation of the circularity. Dean A. Snyder Assistant Research Scholar Manager, Digital Hammurabi Project Computer Science Department Whiting School of Engineering 218C New Engineering Building 3400 North Charles Street Johns Hopkins University Baltimore, Maryland, USA 21218 office: 410 516-6850 cell: 717 817-4897 www.jhu.edu/digitalhammurabi/ http://users.adelphia.net/~deansnyder/