From petercon@microsoft.com Fri Mar 18 09:46:37 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:18:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2IFka8D017122; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:46:37 -0600 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:46:36 -0800 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:46:35 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [hebrew] Re: [bidi] Arabic and Hebrew Mark Ordering Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:46:18 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [bidi] Arabic and Hebrew Mark Ordering thread-index: AcUrNvYw/apSajngQGO+t6Awy2L8jQAkoQPg From: "Peter Constable" To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Mar 2005 15:46:35.0982 (UTC) FILETIME=[AA9296E0:01C52BD1] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id j2IFka8D017122 X-archive-position: 2942 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: petercon@microsoft.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew > From: bidi-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:bidi-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf > Of Eric Mader > I'm modifying the ICU LayoutEngine to reorder Arabic and Hebrew marks > into the order that is expected by most fonts. This issue belongs on a list such as the OpenType list, not this list. It is a glyph processing issue, not a character encoding issue. > After consulting w/ experts and reading the discussions on the OpenType > and Bidi lists, I arrived at the following orders: ... > Hebrew: The OpenType font specification for Hebrew will be getting updated to specify the following order: Shin/sin (05C1, 05C2) Dagesh/Rafe (05BC, 05BF, FB1E) Holam (05B9, 05BA*) Below marks (0591, 0596, 059B, 05A2*, 05A3 thru 05A7, 05AA, 05B0 thru 05B8, 05BB, 05BD, 05C5*, 05C7*) Below-right marks (059A, 05AD) Above marks (0592..0595, 0597..0599, 059C..05A1, 05A8, 05A9, 05AB, 05AC, 05C4) Above-left marks (05AE) Masora circle (05AF) Number dots (0307, 0308) * Characters added in TUS4.1. That is, marks are to be re-ordered by an OpenType client and presented to the font in that order. (No re-ordering should occur, however, within one of these classes -- Unicode combining classes notwithstanding -- or around CGJ.) I recommend that you follow this order. Peter Constable From tiro@tiro.com Fri Mar 18 13:22:30 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:37:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2IJMT6E027148; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 13:22:30 -0600 Received: from [216.232.216.244] by priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP id <20050318192224.QUHJ17324.priv-edtnes46.telusplanet.net@[216.232.216.244]>; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 12:22:24 -0700 Message-ID: <423B2A6B.40805@tiro.com> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 11:22:19 -0800 From: John Hudson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable CC: bidi@unicode.org, hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: [bidi] Arabic and Hebrew Mark Ordering References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2943 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Peter Constable wrote: > The OpenType font specification for Hebrew will be getting updated to > specify the following order... Peter, I recommend that the above and below puncta extraordinaria be ordered independently of other above and below marks since in some designs they may need to shift position relative to vowels or accents. The puncta are akin to the masora circle, i.e. they represent another layer of information applied to the text. John Hudson -- Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com Currently reading: A century of philosophy, by Hans Georg Gadamer David Jones: artist and poet, ed. Paul Hills From peterkirk@qaya.org Fri Mar 18 17:09:31 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:42:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from pan.hu-pan.com (hu-pan.com [67.15.6.3]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2IN9U2Z023174; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:09:31 -0600 Received: from 213-162-124-237.peterk253.adsl.metronet.co.uk ([213.162.124.237] helo=[10.0.0.1]) by pan.hu-pan.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.50) id 1DCQau-0002NP-8F; Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:09:28 +0000 Received: from 127.0.0.1 (AVG SMTP 7.0.308 [266.7.3]); Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:09:29 +0000 Message-ID: <423B5FA8.4020809@qaya.org> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 23:09:28 +0000 From: Peter Kirk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041217 X-Accept-Language: en-gb, en, en-us, az, ru, tr, he, el, fr, de To: John Hudson CC: Peter Constable , bidi@unicode.org, hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: [bidi] Arabic and Hebrew Mark Ordering References: <423B2A6B.40805@tiro.com> In-Reply-To: <423B2A6B.40805@tiro.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - pan.hu-pan.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - unicode.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - qaya.org X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-archive-position: 2944 X-Approved-By: cowan@ccil.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: peterkirk@qaya.org Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew On 18/03/2005 19:22, John Hudson wrote: > Peter Constable wrote: > >> The OpenType font specification for Hebrew will be getting updated to >> specify the following order... > > > Peter, I recommend that the above and below puncta extraordinaria be > ordered independently of other above and below marks since in some > designs they may need to shift position relative to vowels or accents. > The puncta are akin to the masora circle, i.e. they represent another > layer of information applied to the text. > > John Hudson > I would agree with this preference. -- Peter Kirk peter@qaya.org (personal) peterkirk@qaya.org (work) http://www.qaya.org/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. 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Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 15/03/2005 From petercon@microsoft.com Sat Mar 19 02:06:00 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:53:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.123]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2J85xPI019637; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 02:06:00 -0600 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:05:59 -0800 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1802); Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:05:59 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [hebrew] Re: [bidi] Arabic and Hebrew Mark Ordering Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:05:55 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [hebrew] Re: [bidi] Arabic and Hebrew Mark Ordering thread-index: AcUr79v5p8Dxr86RRYqumoZQf0uozgABPF1g From: "Peter Constable" To: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Mar 2005 08:05:59.0160 (UTC) FILETIME=[7C27F780:01C52C5A] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id j2J85xPI019637 X-archive-position: 2945 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: petercon@microsoft.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew > From: John Hudson [mailto:tiro@tiro.com] > Peter, I recommend that the above and below puncta extraordinaria be ordered > independently > of other above and below marks since in some designs they may need to shift position > relative to vowels or accents. The puncta are akin to the masora circle, i.e. they > represent another layer of information applied to the text. Are you suggesting, then, that they go in the same ordering class as the masora circle, or in a separate class just before the masora circle? Quickly reviewing our discussion from Nov/03, there had been suggestions that the puncta be grouped with other above / below marks; your and my final comments in that thread were: In my font, the puncta deliberately clear all other marks, so this shouldn't be an issue. I can set up the puncta lookups to ignore the other marks easily enough. [PC]>Life can be easier for font developers that always want to put the >puncta on a separate level further out, or it can be easier for those >that want to put puncta on the same level as other marks. It's one or >the other. > >If putting the puncta in the same group as the general above or below >marks is what you all are happy with, I'll write it that way. I think I'm obliged to be happy about it because, clearly, not everyone agrees with my thoughts on the design and positioning of the puncta. To produce the rendering shown in both BHS and BHL one would almost certainly need the puncta in the same class as the other above marks. So be it. I subsequently published the ordering I presented in my message earlier this morning, and received no further feedback. I'm reluctant to make a change without having experts review that decision. Also, if there were agreement on such a change, there is no guarantee that we or other vendors could make changes in implementation soon, and we also need to consider impact on existing font implementations and documents. I want to do what's right; I just want to proceed carefully, and make sure the right decisions are made keeping all factors in mind. Peter From tiro@tiro.com Sat Mar 19 13:27:34 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:37:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (outbound05.telus.net [199.185.220.224]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2JJRWFO013614; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:27:33 -0600 Received: from [216.232.216.244] by priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP id <20050319192727.NOUI8620.priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net@[216.232.216.244]>; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:27:27 -0700 Message-ID: <423C7D1E.10702@tiro.com> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:27:26 -0800 From: John Hudson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable CC: bidi@unicode.org, hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: [bidi] Arabic and Hebrew Mark Ordering References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2946 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Peter Constable wrote: > Are you suggesting, then, that they go in the same ordering class as the > masora circle, or in a separate class just before the masora circle? No. Sorry for the confusion. What is necessary is that the puncta be ordered subsequent to other above or below marks (excepting the masora circle) relative to which they might, in some designs, need to be contextually positioned (for instance, the upper punctum may need to be raised relative to the revia on lamed in the first word of Ps.27:13). The upper punctum should be ordered immediately after but separate from above accents. The lower punctum should be ordered immediately after but separate from the centered below marks (interaction with below right marks is not an issue, so far as I know). John Hudson -- Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com Currently reading: A century of philosophy, by Hans Georg Gadamer David Jones: artist and poet, ed. Paul Hills From petercon@microsoft.com Sat Mar 19 17:01:29 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:47:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2JN1Sdj013743 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 17:01:29 -0600 Received: from mailout2.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.120]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:01:27 -0800 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:01:27 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [hebrew] Re: [bidi] Arabic and Hebrew Mark Ordering Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:01:35 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [hebrew] Re: [bidi] Arabic and Hebrew Mark Ordering thread-index: AcUsubBDeHVsF8JoQeyezZWERlfqCQAHXBfQ From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Mar 2005 23:01:27.0759 (UTC) FILETIME=[94E58DF0:01C52CD7] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id j2JN1Sdj013743 X-archive-position: 2947 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: petercon@microsoft.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew [Responding to Hebrew list only.] > From: John Hudson [mailto:tiro@tiro.com] > What is necessary is... John: you didn't comment on the fact that what you're saying now appears to be a change from the consensus arrived at a year and a half ago. If I am mistaken in that regard, please correct me. If that is the case, though, I don't want to make any change hastily. Thanks. Peter Constable From tiro@tiro.com Sat Mar 19 20:04:30 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:27:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (outbound01.telus.net [199.185.220.220]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2K24TQE021681 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:04:30 -0600 Received: from [216.232.216.244] by priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP id <20050320020423.FINA18226.priv-edtnes56.telusplanet.net@[216.232.216.244]>; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 19:04:23 -0700 Message-ID: <423CDA26.1010706@tiro.com> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:04:22 -0800 From: John Hudson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable CC: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: [bidi] Arabic and Hebrew Mark Ordering References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2948 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Peter Constable wrote: > John: you didn't comment on the fact that what you're saying now appears > to be a change from the consensus arrived at a year and a half ago. If I > am mistaken in that regard, please correct me. If that is the case, > though, I don't want to make any change hastily. On the one hand I consider it obvious that the puncta should follow other above or below marks in the same sense that if you want e.g. an acute accent to appear above a diaeresis you encode the diaeresis closer to the base and then the acute. I can't imagine that anyone would encode e.g. the above puctum before another above mark on a base, so it probably doesn't matter if the the puncta are in the same classes as other above and below marks with which they might interract in terms of contextually adjusted positioning. So this was the basis for consensus, as I understood it. On the other hand, if I thought there were any likelihood of the puncta being encoded before other marks to which they might need to be relatively positioned, then I would feel strongly that they needed their own class to ensure ordering after those marks. In short, what you have is probably perfectly okay, presuming that people observe the basic principle that, vertically, marks closest to the base are encoded before those further away. Regards, John -- Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com Currently reading: A century of philosophy, by Hans Georg Gadamer David Jones: artist and poet, ed. Paul Hills From petercon@microsoft.com Sun Mar 20 20:42:15 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:45:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.123]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2L2gEqN022950 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:42:14 -0600 Received: from mailout1.microsoft.com ([157.54.1.117]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.211); Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:42:13 -0800 Received: from RED-MSG-52.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.12]) by mailout1.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1802); Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:42:13 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [hebrew] Re: [bidi] Arabic and Hebrew Mark Ordering Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:42:22 -0800 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [hebrew] Re: [bidi] Arabic and Hebrew Mark Ordering thread-index: AcUs8SQHkWckkAhCR5+I92RgkZ2LMAAyFxTA From: "Peter Constable" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Mar 2005 02:42:13.0502 (UTC) FILETIME=[966349E0:01C52DBF] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by unicode.org id j2L2gEqN022950 X-archive-position: 2949 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: petercon@microsoft.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew > From: John Hudson [mailto:tiro@tiro.com] > In short, what you have is probably perfectly okay, presuming that people > observe the > basic principle that, vertically, marks closest to the base are encoded > before those > further away. I think we need to consider two scenarios: one in which an author creates the data with the characters encoded in a preferred, linguistically- / typographically-logical order, and one in which the data has been normalized. Presumably for the former case we can assume that authors will do what you suggest (or, at least, recommend that they do so). In the normalization scenario, the puncta have combining classes of 220 and 230. That means that they will necessarily follow all vowel marks, and they'll keep their relative order with most above/below accents, the exception being that the below punctum would precede yetiv and dehi (class 222). But since we're already suggesting that these two accepts be presented to the font ordered in a separate class that follows other below marks, that's not a problem. So, I think we're good to go. Peter Constable From tiro@tiro.com Sun Mar 20 20:51:54 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list hebrew); Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:54:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (outbound05.telus.net [199.185.220.224]) by unicode.org (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2L2prDb024990 for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:51:54 -0600 Received: from [216.232.216.244] by priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP id <20050321025148.CFVN22399.priv-edtnes40.telusplanet.net@[216.232.216.244]>; Sun, 20 Mar 2005 19:51:48 -0700 Message-ID: <423E36BE.6070000@tiro.com> Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 18:51:42 -0800 From: John Hudson User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable CC: hebrew@unicode.org Subject: [hebrew] Re: [bidi] Arabic and Hebrew Mark Ordering References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2950 X-Approved-By: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org Errors-to: hebrew-bounce@unicode.org X-original-sender: tiro@tiro.com Precedence: bulk X-list: hebrew Peter Constable wrote: > In the normalization scenario, the puncta have combining classes of 220 > and 230. That means that they will necessarily follow all vowel marks, > and they'll keep their relative order with most above/below accents, the > exception being that the below punctum would precede yetiv and dehi > (class 222). But since we're already suggesting that these two accepts > be presented to the font ordered in a separate class that follows other > below marks, that's not a problem. > > So, I think we're good to go. Agreed. In terms of font lookups, developers will need to make sure that the possibility of the lower punctum ordered between other below marks and yetiv or dehi does not result in incorrect placement of the latter, but this is easy enough to achieve. John Hudson -- Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC tiro@tiro.com Currently reading: A century of philosophy, by Hans Georg Gadamer David Jones: artist and poet, ed. Paul Hills