L2/98-420

Minutes of the NCITS/L2 meeting # 175
December 4, 1998 - San Jose

  1. Joint meeting with UTC December 1-3, 1998 [L2/98-349]

    2. Technical discussions, see minutes [98-419], action items [SD-2], and motions [98-418] for details.

  2. Opening of L2 meeting - remarks from the chair

    3. NCITS has awarded the NCITS Merit Award to Ed Hart. I want to thank anybody who supported this nomination. Ed deserves it. Arnold presented the award to Ed. Applause.

    NCITS has chosen David Thewlis as the liaison to L2, replacing Hill whom L2 never saw.

  3. Administrative agenda
    1. Attendance and membership
      1. Membership list [SD-1]

        2. We are now 16 members. SGI has joined again. Digital is now Compaq. Apple, Compaq, HP, IBM, Microsoft, Novell, Oracle, Progress, RLG, Reuters, Share, SGI, Sybase, Sun, Unicode, Unisys.

         

      2. Members in jeopardy

        3. AI: Misha Wolf – ask him to nominate an alternate. Last time extension for membership.

        AI: SGI – Arnold write jeopardy letter.

      3. Attendance at December 98 meeting

        4. Apple, Compaq, IBM, Microsoft, Novell, RLG, Oracle, Progress, SHARE, Sybase, Sun, Unicode, Unisys.

        Name

        Company

        Unicode
        Member

        UTC
        12/1/98

        UTC
        12/2/98

        UTC
        12/3/98

        UTC
        12/4/98

        L2
        12/4/98

        Aliprand, Joan

        RLG

        v

        CM

        CM

        CM

        CM

        P

        Allen, Julie

        Unicode

        		  

        x

        x

        		      

        Becker, Joe

        (Xerox)

        		  

        CM

        CM

        CM

        		    

        Beeton, Barbara

        (AMS)

        		  

        x

        x

        x

        		    

        Buhler, Ric

        Novell

        x

        CM

        CM

        CM

        CM

        A

        Carroll, Don

        Hewlett-Packard

        		            

        Davis, Mark

        IBM - Taligent

        		  

        CM

        CM

        CM

        		    

        Dürst, Martin

        (W3C)

        		  

        L

        L

        		      

        Freytag, Asmus

        Unicode

        		    

        UO

        UO

        UO

        P

        Hart, Edwin

        SHARE

        		  

        AM

        AM

        AM

        AM

        P

        Hiura, Hideki

        Sun Microsystems

        x

        CM

        CM

        CM

        CM

        P

        Honomichl, Lloyd

        Novell

        v

        CM

        CM

        CM

        CM

        P

        Jenkins, John

        Apple

        		  

        CM

        		  

        CM

        CM

        P

        Kernaghan, Mike

        Microsoft

        x

        		          

        Kobayashi, Tatsuo

        (Justsystem)

        		    

        CM

        CM

        CM

        x

        Long, Wai-Man

        Compaq

        v

        CM

        CM

        CM

        CM

        P

        Mansour, Kamal

        (Monotype)

        		  

        CM

        x

        x

        		    

        McGowan, Rick

        Apple

        v

        CM

        CM

        CM

        		    

        Mittelstein, Matthias

        (SAP AG)

        v

        CM

        CM

        CM

        CM

        x

        Moore, Lisa

        IBM

        v

        CM

        CM

        CM

        CM

        A

        O’Brian, Cleo

        Silicon Graphics

        		            

        Oesterle, Julia

        Unicode

        x

        x

        		        

        Reilly, Patrick

        (IAC)

        		    

        x/2

        		      

        Roberts, Gary

        (NCR)

        v

        CM

        CM

        CM

        CM

        x

        Sargent, Murray

        Microsoft

        v

        CM

        CM

        CM

        		    

        Soiffer, Neil

        (Wolfram Research)

        		      

        E

        		    

        Suignard, Michel

        Microsoft

        x

        CM

        CM

        CM

        CM

        P

        Texin, Tex

        Progress Software

        		  

        CM

        CM

        CM

        CM

        P

        Whistler, Ken

        Sybase

        v

        CM

        CM

        CM

        CM

        P

        Winkler, Arnold

        Unisys

        v

        CM

        CM

        CM

        CM

        P

        Yang, Jianping

        Oracle

        v

        CM

        CM

        CM

        CM

        P

        Yau, Michael

        Oracle

        x

        CM

        		  

        CM

        		    

        Legend: L2: P - Primary, A - Alternate, M - Member, x - present,
        UTC: CM: Corporate Member, AM: Associate Member, UO - Unicode officer

         

      4. Membership fees for 1999

      Winkler explained the fee structure.

    2. Approval of last meetings minutes [L2/98-157]

      3. Ken moves to approve. Approved. 3 abstentions: Hiura, Tex, Lisa

    3. Approval of meetings minutes from July 1998 [L2/98-280]

      4. add to #9: L2 accepts the decisions from the joint UTC/L2 meeting.

      Members in Jeopardy – change Tex to Progress Software.

      Ken moves to approve: approved with 5 abstaining

      AI: Winkler make above changes to L2/98-280.

    4. L2 project list [SD-4]

      5. For Information.

    5. Action items follow-up [SD-2]

      6. Please send e-mail about your actions according to the action item list in SD2 - this allows timely updates.

    6. Registration of new documents and assignment to agenda

      7. L2/98-414

      Revisit vote to withdraw of X3.4 and X3.83

      Ed Hart

      1998-12-02

      		  

      L2/98-415

      Comments on the CJK Radicals Supplement

      Jenkins

      1998-12-01

      396-D

      L2/98-416

      Support for implementing interlinear annotations

      SC2/WG2 N1882

      1998-09-23

      396-D

      L2/98-417

      Supplement information for L2/98-415 – Index page of Japanese dictionary

      Hiura, Kobayashi

      1998-12-04

      396-D

      L2/98-418

      Motions from the L2/UTC technical meeting in San Jose, December 1-4, 1998

      Aliprand

      1998-12-04

      admin

      L2/98-419

      Minutes of the L2/UTC technical meeting in San Jose, December 4, 1998

      Aliprand

      		  

      admin

      L2/98-421

      Paper on annotations

      Suignard, Hiura

      		  

      396-D

       

    7. Approval of agenda [L2/98-350]

Additions: Reconsideration of decisions from Seattle as 9.2:

Agenda is approved with addition of 9.2.

    1. Next meetings

February 3-5, 1999 Palo Alto (HP)

June 8-11, 1999 Redmond (Microsoft)

October 26-29, 1999 Mission Viejo (Unisys, date tentatively)

AI: Murray to confirm room availablility

  1. Report from SC22/WG20 meetings
    1. Resolutions from Dublin [98-224]

      2. For information.

    2. Minutes from Tel Aviv [98-377]

      3. Ken reports about the WG20 ordering standard – second FCD with table from the same data as the Unicode algorithm. Difference from the Unicode order are through tailoring in the special symbols order (request of Canada and Ireland).

      On ISO 15897 – contributions requested. Asmus: we have to address the whole community. Keld, Alain, and Everson have given opinions.

      AI: Ken, Asmus, Ed, Arnold start cooperative effort to write a document directed to JTC1 and CLAUI about the market relevance of this particular standard (ISO 15897).

      AI – Arnold: find "market relevance" text in JTC1 procedures.

    3. Resolutions from Tel Aviv [98-378]

    For information.

  2. Report from SC2 meetings in London
    1. Resolutions WG2 [98-306R, 98-312]

      2. Ken’s interpretations of the resolutions give great insight into the progress of scripts in ISO 10646. Also, the Drachma sign is being proposed because it has been added to 8859-7. Fukuoka should only confirm, no changes should happen.

    2. Resolutions WG3 [98-307]

    ISO 8859-7 has the euro and the Drachma symbol.

     

    Ad hoc meeting on annotations: Ken, Asmus, Hiura, Joan, Michel. Result: Document L2/98-421.

  3. Ballots
    1. Ballots to vote :

We have 13 members present, and letter votes from HP and from Reuters.

L2-Doc

SC2-doc

Subject

Type
       

98-317

N3186

AMENDMENT 28: Ideographic description characters

registration

98-317

N3186

AMENDMENT 28: Ideographic description characters

PDAM
       

98-332

N3213

AMENDMENT 15: Kang Xi radicals and CJK radicals supplement

registration

98-332

N3213

AMENDMENT 15: Kang Xi radicals and CJK radicals supplement

PDAM
       

98-326

N3207

Amendment 29: Mongolian

Subdivision

98-327

N3208

Amendment 29: Mongolian

registration

98-327

N3208

Amendment 29: Mongolian

PDAM
       

98-328

N3209

Amendment 30: Additional Latin and other characters

Subdivision

98-329

N3210

Amendment 30: Additional Latin and other characters

registration

98-329

N3210

Amendment 30: Additional Latin and other characters

PDAM
       

98-330

N3211

Amendment 31: Tibetian Extension

Subdivision

98-331

N3212

Amendment 31: Tibetian Extension

registration

98-331

N3212

Amendment 31: Tibetian Extension

PDAM
       

98-320

N3192

AMENDMENT 22: Keyboard Symbols

FPDAM

98-320

N3192

AMENDMENT 22: Keyboard Symbols

ANSI standard
       

98-323

N3198

AMENDMENT 24: Thaana

FPDAM

98-323

N3198

AMENDMENT 24: Thaana

ANSI standard
       

98-324

N3201

AMENDMENT 25: Khmer

FPDAM

98-324

N3201

AMENDMENT 25: Khmer

ANSI standard
       

98-325

N3203

AMENDMENT 26: Myanmar

FPDAM

98-325

N3203

AMENDMENT 26: Myanmar

ANSI standard
       

98-322

N3196

AMENDMENT 27: Syriac

FPDAM

98-322

N3196

AMENDMENT 27: Syriac

ANSI
       

98-318

N3188

AMENDMENT 18: Symbols and Others

FDAM

98-318

N3188

AMENDMENT 18: Symbols and Others

ANSI
       

98-319

N3190

AMENDMENT 21: Sinhala

FDAM

98-319

N3190

AMENDMENT 21: Sinhala

ANSI
       

98-321

N3194

AMENDMENT 23: Bopomofo Extended and other characters

FDAM

98-321

N3194

AMENDMENT 23: Bopomofo Extended and other characters

ANSI
       

98-333

N3215

AMENDMENT 14: Yi syllables and YI radicals

FPDAM

98-333

N3215

AMENDMENT 14: Yi syllables and YI radicals

ANSI
       

98-334

N3220

AMENDMENT 17: CJK Unified Ideograph Extension

FPDAM

98-334

N3220

AMENDMENT 17: CJK Unified Ideograph Extension

ANSI
       
       

98-382

N618

TR 10176 - Guide for programming language standards, Amendment #1 (Annex A table)

subdivision 22.13

98-382

N618

TR 10176 - Guide for programming language standards, Amendment #1 (Annex A table)

TR AMD#1 registration

98-382

N618

TR 10176 - Guide for programming language standards, Amendment #1 (Annex A table)

TR AMD#1 PDTR ballot
       

98-381

N619

IS 14651 2nd FCD - International string ordering

FCD
       

98-379

N599R

Liaison between Unicode and SC22/WG20

Liaison

General Recommendation : all approved amendments to ISO 10646 shall also be ANSI standards.

AI: Arnold to submit this to ANSI/NCITS.

Vote on all registrations and subdivisions with exception of TR 10176 – 13:0:0

Votes below do not contain HP and Reuters, which are in electronic form. Will be updated by Winkler with HP and Reuters input. SGI is not present and thus not voting.

Vote for Amendment 28 – 13:0:0 – with comment

Vote for Amendment 15 – 13:0:0 – with comments

Vote for Amendment 29 – 13:0:0 – with comments

Vote for Amendment 30 – 13:0:0 – with comments

Vote for Amendment 31 – 13:0:0 – with comments

Vote for Amendment 22 – 13:0:0 – with comments

Vote for Amendment 24 – 13:0:0

Vote for Amendment 25 – 13:0:0

Vote for Amendment 26 – 13:0:0

Vote for Amendment 27 – 13:0:0

Vote for Amendment 18 – 13:0:0

Vote for Amendment 21 – 13:0:0

Vote for Amendment 23 – 13:0:0 – with comments

Vote for Amendment 14 – 13:0:0

Vote for Amendment 17 – 13:0:0 – with comments

TR 10176 - update to correct the table of characters for identifiers.

Vote for subdivision of project 22.13 – 13:0:0

Vote for registration of TR 10176 Amendment #1 -- 13:0:0

Vote for Amendment #1 to TR 10176 – 13:0:0

Vote on IS 14651 postponed for the meeting in February. Documents must be submitted before January 20, 1999. Ken asks, not to be the only one to comment on the proposed FCD.

AI: All read ballot documents and provide comments for USD position by January 20, 1999

Vote on Unicode liaison with WG20 – 13:0:0

Comments:

Amendment 28: Text on page 4, D3.1 : The reference to "coded ideographic component" in D 3.1 must be removed since this concept does not exist in ISO 10646.

Amendment 15:.

  1. The US notes that in the original submission the name of character 2FA3 should have been "KANGXI RADICAL WINE". The US regrets this error.
  2. The US recommends that Radicals in the published standard be shown in a font that is visually distinct from the font in which the ideographs are shown.
  3. The US requests that a section to be added to Annex T to explain that the characters of the CJK radicals supplement are explicitly excepted from the Han unification rules. This is the result of the intent of the characters in the CJK radical supplement to stand for exact glyphic forms of radicals that occur in East Asian dictionaries as aids for visual search for characters.

Amendment 29:

  1. The US recommends that sufficient text be added to Annex D to fully explain the use of characters 180B through 180E.
  2. The US have noticed font differences from source documents N1515 and N1691 in code positions 1810 through 1819. The US asks for clarification .

Amendment 30:

  1. The US requests that the comment in L2/98-421 be included or that the characters FFF9, FFFA, FFFB be removed.
  2. Remove soft space (input form Mark Davis expected) - use the function of ZWSP instead of the soft space--- or a satisfactory explanation of its difference.

Amendment 31: The glyphs for characters 0F88, 0F89 and 0F8B must be corrected to remove the dotted circle.

Amendment 22: Glyph in 2396 should be enlarged in size.

Amendment 23: Editorial: please use the correct title for the table.

Amendment 17:

  1. The US requests that Annex T be amended to state that for the CJK Unified Extension A the source separation rule was not applied.
  2. The inserted entry on Page 11, Clause 19 should read
    CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAHS EXTENSION A 3400 – 4DB5
  3. Add to the new entry for Page 700, Annex A
    81 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPHS EXTENSION A 3400 – 4DB5 add FA1F, FA23

 

For the minutes only:

Instruction to the IR on Thaana: if a NB comes in with a better sequence of characters, we will accept

Instructions to the IR on the euro glyph: get Times Roman format.

The glyph in FFFC of Amendment 18 is incorrect, it ought to be OBJ. Suignard will contact Paterson about this error.

Mongolian has some rotational differences to the PDAM font (book). Differ in the source documents.

Amendment 30: If the caucus gets additional information on the soft space, or a satisfactory explanation of its difference, it is authorized to proceed as needed.

 

    1. Ballot reports:

98-221

  

ISO/IEC 8859-15 - Latin 9

FDIS - NO

98-305

N3171

Draft Technical Corrigendum No. 1 to ISO/IEC 2022:1994

DCOR - YES

Winkler reported about this vote. The change in registration authority was approved.

  1. U.S. Positions for the SC2 meetings in London
    1. SC2/WG2
      1. Proposed modification of SC2 program of work [98-232]

      Not addressed

    2. SC2/WG3
      1. Alternative to 32 graphic characters in columns 8&9 of ISO 2022 [98-225]

    Not addresses, will be discussed in WG3.

  2. Delegates to SC2 and SC22/WG20 meetings
    1. Delegates to SC2/WG2 in Japan, March 1999

      2. Whistler, Winkler, Suignard, Hiura; Asmus as liaison from Unicode

    2. Delegates to SC2 plenary in Japan, March 1999

      3. Whistler, Winkler, Suignard, Ksar

    3. Delegates to SC2/WG2 IRG meeting, May 1999 in HongKong

      4. Huira, Kung, Yang, Jenkins

    4. Delegates to SC22/WG20 in Malvern, USA, May 3-7, 1999

    Whistler, Texin, Buchta

  3. Other
    1. Cultural and Linguistic Adaptability and User Interface [98-391, 392, 393, 394]

      2. French contributions, TC154 stuff Basic Semantics Repository, waiting for report from the meeting. Ksar is there, and Keld, Alain, Takata for WG20.

    2. Reconsideration of X3.4 and X3.83 replacements [98-414]

    Hart: X3.4 is a very basic standard and used in many other standards (C, IETF RFCs, more…) .

    Jenkins: the reaffirmation of ASCII is little work compared with anything else to do.

    Asmus: we should do something with ASCII - such as the proposed "archiving".

    ASCII: X3.83

    AI: Arnold check, why it was up for re-affirmation so quickly.

    AI: Arnold to check ETA for the new procedure that allows "archiving".

    Everybody agrees to do nothing until the meeting in February or answers from Arnold's action items.

    X3.83

    This standard defines the US process to register character sets with the ISO registry. This opens the question, if we don’t also need a similar standard for the registration of cultural elements with Denmark to ISO 15897.

    This standard was never used by L2.

    Asmus: this standard serves no particular purpose.

    Everybody agrees to do nothing until the meeting in February - get more information.

  4. Voting on joint UTC/L2 meeting recommendations

    5. All motions, [98-418] as amended, from the joint UTC/L2 meeting were approved unanimously except the motions regarding the annotation characters (due to agreements in an ad hoc meeting).

  5. Adjournment

Meeting is adjourned – 5:45 pm.