At 09:56 98-10-13 -0700, Michael Everson wrote:
>I don't follow the logic. The raised circle is a LETTER O. It's an
>abbreviation for "num�ro". Why should it be drawn, in a Times font, with a
>perfectly round degree sign, and not with a small LETTER O? C'est illogique.
[Alain] :
For common of mortals, a round sign is the letter o as well as the degree
sign. This is logical, how could it be otherwise?
The degree sign has been used as a subscripted o the firts day it was
available on typewriters, so it is enough to create a tradtition, andd the
tradition is now ubiquitous on both sides of the Atlantic, and more
generally in the 49 countries/states of the Francophonie.
>>If one wants to say N DEGREES, in French, like in English, one will
>>explicitly writes so, not write "n�"
[Michael] :
>That's not true. Isn't "n" used as an algebraic indefinite number in
>French? We talk in English about "the nth degree" ('� la puissance n', 'la
>�ni�me fois'), but if it was just incredibly cold we might say "it was n�
>below zero".
[Alain] :
The "nth" of "nth dregree" is not composed of 2 words, it is one word, so
no space.
"N � below zero" should be written with a space (as, for example, in 1,25 $
[the French way to write $1.25, with a space, or 98 %, with a space also,
unlike in English perhaps].
>>(btw in French, when we want to write
>>two words, we write a space in between, i.e. "n �" could, very
>>hypothetically, mean EN DEGREES).
[Michael] :
>In ordinary temperatures, however, you don't write a space, just e.g. 39�.
>So you might be able to say that "il avait n� au-dessous de z�ro"?
[Alain] :
Yes we do write a space in correct typography.
>>"N�" or "n�" is definitely used only to indicate "num�ro" in French. But if
>>one wants to use a red light in the dark to understand something else in
>>limited and absolutely out-of-this-world conditions, this situation is
>>always theoretically possible, and part of the [sci-]fiction domain (;
>
>My point was that, given the nature of the abbreviation, I don't see why n�
>or N� (with a degree sign) should be considered superior to n� or N� (with
>the ordinal indicator).
[Alain] :
I never said it was superior. It is more modern, more current usage. Old
fashion never meant inferior in my mind (I almost wrote "on the contrary",
but I refrained to say it (; ).
Even for abbreviations, the past has accustomed us to underlined
superscripts. When I was young, the bus company in the suburbs of the city
of Qu�bec where I was living wrote its name as
ie
C-- d'autobus de Charlesbourg
(Compagnie d'autobus de Charlesbourg)
and the local grocery store was identified as
res ie t�e
Mercier & F--- C-- L---
(Mercier et Fr�res, [Compagnie] Limit�e)
This is today completely outdated, although the rules of correct
abbreviation still exist.
Nowadays we tend to abbreviate with a point after a series of firts
contiguous letters rather than with the last letters of a word underlined
and superscripted (at the limit we abbreviate with the last letters of the
words without a point, without superscripts no underlining -- as in "Mme",
for "Madame", or "St�" for "Soci�t�", or "1er" for "premier", "1�re" for
"premi�re", "2e" for "deuxi�me", "2nd" for "second", and so on and so forth).
[Michael] :
>Assuming of course that you are limited to Latin 1. I notice in _Les
>caract�res de l'Imprimerie Nationale_ that a superscript o, not a degree
>sign, is used to indicate "num�ro".
[Alain] :
o
You mean N , not o alone, of course.
That is of course correct. Except that the common of mortals don't do this
in email, for example, it is much simpler to write N�... And it was already
like this 2 decades ago on typewriters.
[Michael] :
>But in _Lexique des r�gles typographiques_ it also says "Il convient de
>rappeler que 1�, 2�, 3� ... sont les abbr�viations de primo, secundo,
>tertio..., le signe sup�rieur �tant un o et non un z�ro". Surely the same
>applies to num�ro?
[Alain] :
The distinction between 0 and o is of course very important and even
visually distinguishable in most fonts. That said, what they say does not
contradict what I wrote at all.
1�, 2�, 3�, 4�, n�, primo, secundo, tertio, quarto, num�ro, without space
-- it is all one word (a superscript o or a degree sign are indifferently
used by people).
Alain LaBont�
Qu�bec
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