From: Mark Davis (mark.davis@icu-project.org)
Date: Wed Jun 14 2006 - 14:03:34 CDT
There was discussion of this in the UTC a few meetings ago, and as I recall,
the conclusion was that it was more appropriate for CLDR, since it is a
language-sensitive issue. (However, I don't think the discussion was
captured in the minutes.)
In any event, I filed a placeholder bug at
http://dev.icu-project.org/cgi-bin/locale-bugs?findid=1079. Participants in
this email discussion can file a Reply there with any comments or
suggestions.
Mark
On 6/14/06, Keutgen, Walter <walter.keutgen@be.unisys.com> wrote:
>
> Jeroen,
>
> I understood that your contribution was informative, so was mine. It is
> Richard who is searching rules for title casing. I.e. he wants to avoid
> that "ff" at the begin of a word change because some English aristocratic
> names begin by "ff". And he used the Dutch "IJ" example, which you
> contributed, for that purpose. And he considered also the case change of
> propor nouns generally.
>
> Title case applied to a whole sentence as a title, in the way I have seen
> it in some American or English texts, just capitalizes the 1st letter of
> each word. As we do not follow this usage in continental Europe, we would
> select the words manually and we would have no problem with surnames,
> provided we know the rules, which I did not for the Dutch letter. Is Mr.
> "van Oostergem" a noble or not?. Of course a software "title-casing"
> correctly a word in Dutch should know the "IJ" rule. I believe word
> processors implement this rule as a typing assistance.
>
> You wrote: "Realistically we should be using the special glyph, but
> almost everyone I know doesn't even realise we have a specialised glyph for
> this". Authors care about letters, not glyphs, for them "ij" no longer
> exists. People involved in the reproduction of text as an artwork do.
>
> Collation sequences vary with time. A German dictionnary of 1962 shows
> the hand written "alphabet" both in Süterlin and Latin script with "ä", "ö"
> and "ü" after the "z" like in the Scandinavian collation sequences, whereas
> the dictionnary itself sorts these letters like "a", "o" and "u"
> respectively and just behind them in case of collision of the full words.
>
> Does "ij" at the place of "y" imply that there was no "y"? Did the Dutches
> not just put a diaresis on the "y"?
> If true, this is interesting. In the French speaking part of Belgium,
> people tend to write their Dutch or Flemish rooted names with an "y" instead
> of "ij". In manual writing "ÿ" would be the same as "ij". When I say
> people, one must know that long ago only the teachers, priests, civil state
> servants and army secretaries wrote authoritatively names and sometimes they
> made mistakes, "corrected" or just transcribed what they heart. So my
> mother's first name on the birth certificate, a document one does not read
> too often, is "Catharina" whilst she was tought at school to write
> "Katharina" – her teachers did not read the birth certificate. She was not
> aware of "Catharina" until a civil state servant stopped her when signing
> "Katharina ...". Similarily the father of a colleague of 11 years ago
> suddenly got a letter of the ministery that he illegally had changed his
> name to "Pattyn" and was urged to revert to "Pattijn" including to reprint
> his business paper forms!
>
> Best regards
>
> Walter
>
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>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeroen Ruigrok/asmodai [mailto:asmodai@in-nomine.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, 14 June 2006 18:37
> To: Keutgen, Walter
> Cc: Richard Wordingham; unicode@unicode.org
> Subject: Re: Tentative Definition of Casefolding
>
> Walter,
>
> -On [20060614 18:16], Keutgen, Walter (walter.keutgen@be.unisys.com)
> wrote:
> >Surnames with words beginning with a lower case letter would not have
> this
> >letter capitalized, except as 1st letter of the title being a sentence of
> its
> >own.
>
> You are, I think, forgetting about the case where you have a Johan van
> Oostergem and a letter will address him as:
>
> Geachte heer Van Oostergem [...].
>
> The lower case start of the surname is in fact uppercased. Not sure if you
> meant that with title as well, if so, mea culpa.
>
> >Is it really the aim of Unicode to cover this all for the benefit of some
> >universal routine? I doubt.
>
> I doubt that too. My information was more informative I guess. ;)
>
> >If I remember well what I have heard from a now retired Dutch colleague
> and
> >read elsewhere, before the spelling reform of 1946-1947, the ligature
> "ij"
> >[ει] was a letter on its own, between "i" and "j" in the collation
> sequence.
>
> I can show you old 19th century dictionary files where the ij ligature
> (derived from ii) was in the place in the collation sequence where
> nowadays y
> is situated (u v w x y z).
>
> >The ligatures exist in UNICODE, U+0132 (IJ) and U+0133 (ij). Like the
> French
> >"Œ" and "œ", they were not present in the typewriter. The decision was
> taken
> >to write henceforth "ij" and "IJ". The "IJ" instead of "Ij" in title
> case
> >could be the result of a victory of traditionalists (like the ending
> "isch"
> >instead of "is").
>
> Some philologist would need to verify this, but it might also have to do
> with
> the double i which lies at the origin of ij.
>
> But I wonder how much of that is relevant to this discussion. I do love to
> hear of answers though. ;)
>
> --
> Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
> イェルーン ラウフロック ヴァン デル ウェルヴェン
> http://www.in-nomine.org/
> If I am telling you the Truth now, do you believe it..?
>
>
>
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