Pre-Preliminary Minutes of the UTC 99 / L2 196 Joint Meeting
Toronto, Ontario, Canada -- June 15 - 18, 2004
Hosted by IBM
July 20, 2004
June 15, 2004
Scripts subcommittee meeting. See L2/04-259R for recommendations.
June 16, 2004
PRESENT: Agence Intergouvernementale de la Francophonie; Adobe Systems, Inc.; Apple Computer; Hewlett Packard; IBM Corporation; Microsoft Corporation; RLG (by proxy); Sybase, Inc.
NOT PRESENT: Basis Technology; India, MIT; Justsystem Corp; Oracle Corporation; Peoplesoft; Pakistan, NLA; Sun Microsystems
16 members; 14 in regular attendance. Quorum is 7. Eight members present (7 in person, RLG by proxy)
Calendar review: UTC May 10-13 2005, possibly hosted by HP Nashua.
B.5.1 Approval of minutes of Joint Meeting UTC 98/L2 195 [L2/04-003]
[99-C1] Consensus: Approve minutes of meeting 98.
B.5.2 Review of open action items [L2/SD2]
[99-A1] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Review the description of versions on the versions page.
C.14.6 Inconsistency between data files in 4.0.1 [Freytag, L2/04-167]
[99-A2] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, Editorial Committee: Further discuss the design of UCD tags (L2/04-167).
[99-A3] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Draft a letter of commendation for the Sri Lanka national body, for Mark's signature.
Identified ad hoc group for discussion of Sinhala proposal: V S Umamaheswaran, Eric Muller, Ken Whistler, Mark Davis, Michael Everson, Cathy Wissink, Michael Kaplan, Rick McGowan, Peter Constable. Identify any architectural issues by Friday.
[99-C2] Consensus: Add a new property "Other_ID_Continue", in the next version of the standard.
[99-C3] Consensus: UTC will fix the Ethiopic digits by adding them to Other_ID_Continue.
[99-A4] Action Item for Mark Davis: Add Other_ID_Continue property and document that Other_ID_Continue plus the derivation of ID_Continue.
[99-A5] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Complete the change of properties for Ethiopic digits as previous decision [from the outcome of the public review issue].
[99-A6] Action Item for Ken Whistler, Editorial Committee: Update the linebreaking property for Ethiopic digits.
[99-A7] Action Item for Lisa Moore: Add Turkic Case Folding Exceptions to the agenda for the next UTC meeting, document L2/04-123.
[99-C4] Consensus: Change the linebreak class of CGJ from CM (combining) to GL (glue) in the data file. L2/04-123.
[99-A8] Action Item for Ken Whistler, Editorial Committee: Update the linebreak class of CGJ from CM to GL in the UTR #14 data file.
C.13.2.1 Katakana_Or_Hiragana updates [Davis, L2/04-152; Cowan, L2/04-160]
C.15.4 Script values [Davis, L2/04-124; Freytag, L2/04-125]
C.15.6 Soft-dotted characters in the pipeline [Hallissy, L2/04-144]
[99-C5] Consensus: Give U+1D96, U+1DA4, U+1DA8 the soft dotted property, as in L2/04-144.
[99-A9] Action Item for Mark Davis: Give U+1D96, U+1DA4, U+1DA8 the soft dotted property, as in L2/04-144.
C.14.2.1 Bidi errata [Esfahbod, L2/04-168]
[99-C6] Consensus: Post a public review issue on use of the term "directional run" in UAX #9.
[99-A10] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Write an public review issue on use of the term "directional run" in UAX #9.
[99-A11] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Post Public Review Issue on "directional run", in UAX #9 to close August 3, 2004.
[99-C7] Consensus: Add information in Derived Core Properties that defines default property values, including bidi, for codepoints not represented in UnicodeData.txt.
[99-A12] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Remove the values for unassigned code points in UCD.html and add a note instead to UAX #9 about the location of this data. and add information to derived core properties for the next version of the Unicode Standard.
C.16.7 Final proposal for encoding Phoenician [Everson, L2/04-141R2]
[99-C8] Consensus: UTC accepts 27 Phoenician characters as documented in L2/04-141R2. Proposed for encoding at 10900 and following; with block name Phoenician with range 10900-1091F.
[99-A13] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Update the pipeline to reflect acceptance of 27 Phoenician characters as documented in L2/04-141R2.
[99-A14] Action Item for Michael Everson: Send the Phoenician font to Asmus Freytag for printing the standard.
[99-A15] Action Item for Asmus Freytag: Recommend to WG2 that Phoenician be included in PDAM 2, to enable extended review.
C.4.4 IICore V2.1 – CJK basic [IRG, L2/04-201]
[99-C9] Consensus: Add a field to Unihan.txt called "kIICore" that will track the collection ID and set of IICore. It will represent a "catalog property".
[99-A16] Action Item for John Jenkins: Add the kIICore field to Unihan.txt for the next release. Mark it as provisional until the IICore collection becomes stable.
[99-C10] Consensus: UTC wishes IICore to be versioned, and once included a character should never be removed from the collection.
[99-A16a] Action Item for V S Umamaheswaran: Pursuant to the above consensus, request an update to the WG2 Principles and Procedures document that for these kinds of collections (IICore) stability must be guaranteed.
C.16.2 HKSCS and GB18030 PUA characters [Suignard, Muller, Jenkins, L2/04-161, L2/04-240, L2/04-221]
[99-C11] This consensus is void.
[99-A17] This action item is void.
[99-A18] This action item is void.
C.17.2 Sources for CJK compatibility ideographs [Muller, L2/04-212]
[99-A19] Action Item for V S Umamaheswaran: Forward document L2/04-212 to Mike Ksar for WG2 consideration.
June 17, 2004
PRESENT: Agence Intergouvernementale de la Francophonie; Adobe Systems, Inc.; Apple Computer; Hewlett Packard; IBM Corporation; Justsystem Corp; Microsoft Corporation; RLG (by proxy); Sybase, Inc.
NOT PRESENT: Basis Technology; India, MIT; Oracle Corporation; Peoplesoft; Pakistan, NLA; Sun Microsystems
9 members present.
C.13.1.1 Bug in Kannada collation [Pavanaja, L2/04-102]
[99-A20] Action Item for Cathy Wissink: Get more information on the correct ordering for U+0CBD from the author of L2/04-102.
C.13.1.2 Ordering rules for Hangul, CTT suggestion [Karlsson, L2/04-108]
[99-C12] Consensus: The sense of the UTC is that the CTT proposal for Hangul ordering in document L2/04-108 (WG2 N2715) brings forth many useful and important ideas, however it would be a substantive change and therefore requires more in-depth technical analysis before proceeding. Therefore, UTC does not agree to changing the default table in response this proposal at this time.
C.13.1.3 Indic scripts collation grouping, CTT suggestion [Karlsson, L2/04-109]
[99-C13] Consensus: The proposal in L2/04-109 (WG2 N2716) has not been linguistically substantiated and would have significant performance penalty. Thus it should not be incorporated into the default table.
C.13.1.4 Ordering rules for Khmer, Thai, and Lao, CTT suggestion [Karlsson, L2/04-110]
[99-C14] Consensus: The proposal in L2/04-110 (WG2 N2717) has not been linguistically substantiated and would have significant performance penalty. Thus it should not be incorporated into the default table.
[99-A21] Action Item for Lisa Moore: Schedule a 2-hour collation ad hoc for UTC 100.
C.13.1.5 Ordering rules for Khmer, Thai, and Lao, annex C.2, B.5 [Karlsson, L2/04-111]
[99-C15] Consensus: The proposal in L2/04-111 (WG2 N2718) has not been linguistically substantiated and would have significant performance penalty. Thus it should not be incorporated into the default table. We are open to additional clarifications on the informal specification of Thai ordering in given in Annex C2 of 14651.
C.13.1.6 Request to change Greek collation order for SAN [Anderson, L2/04-034]
[99-C16] Consensus: UTC accepts the proposal to change the collation order for Greek Letter (capital and small) San to its historical order as given in L2/04-034.
[99-A22] Action Item for Mark Davis, Ken Whistler, Cathy Wissink, Editorial Committee: Establish a procedure for tracking and managing changes to the UCA table (DUCET).
C.13.1.7 Request to change Greek collation order for KOPPA [Kirk, L2/04-030R, Anderson, L2/04-055]
[99-C17] Consensus: Failing a clear consensus from the Greek classicist community, the UTC does not accept the proposal to change the collation order of Koppa given in L2/04-030R.
C.13.1.8 UCA Revised Latin [Davis, L2/04-031R]
UTC took no action. Remanded proposal for further discussion, and will have a review at next meeting.)
C.11.1 Liaison report [Davis]
C.11.2 Punctuation and strings [O'Donnell, L2/04-0250]
UTC discussed the latest CLDR release for C.11.1. For C.11.2 UTC decided that there were no character identity issues to be discussed and thus it is a matter for the CLDR-TC.
C.16.2 HKSCS and GB18030 PUA characters [Suignard, Muller, Jenkins, L2/04-161R, L2/04-263]
[99-M1] Motion: UTC accepts the 48 symbols, unified ideographs, and vertical forms documented in L2/04-263.
Moved by Michel Suignard, 2nd Eric Muller
7 for
0 against
2 abstain (JustSystem, Francophonie)Motion 99-M1 carries.
[99-A23] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Update the pipeline to include the 48 symbols, unified ideographs, and vertical forms documented in L2/04-263.
[99-A24] Action Item for Michel Suignard: Forward to Mike Ksar for consideration at the WG2 meeting in June 2004.
C.1.4.1 Ballot comments [Suignard, L2/04-135, L2/04-154, L2/04-241]
C.12.4 Closed Issue 27: Joiner/Nonjoiner in Combining Character Sequences
UTC took no action.
C.12.4.1 Feedback [L2/04-173]
UTC took no action.
C.12.1 Closed Issue 13: Unicode Beta
C.12.1.1 Feedback [L2/04-173]
[99-A25] Action Item for Ken Whistler, Editorial Committee: Consider public feedback on 4.0.1 beta in L2/04-173.
C.12.2 Issue 20: Review of Draft Unicode Technical Report #31 Identifier and Pattern Syntax C.12.2.1 Feedback [L2/04-173]
UTC took no action; deferred to next meeting.
[99-M2] This motion is void.
[99-A26] This action is void.
C.12.6 Issue 30: Bengali Khanda Ta [L2/04-062]
C.12.6.1 Feedback from Gautam Sengupta [Sengupta, L2/04-192]
[99-A27] Action Item for Michael Everson, Eric Muller, Mark Davis: Review the TDIL input for potential new character proposals.
[99-C18] Consensus: Encode "Bengali Letter Khanda Ta" at U+09CE.
[99-A28] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Update the pipeline to include acceptance of "Bengali Letter Khanda Ta" at U+09CE.
[99-A29] Action Item for Cathy Wissink: Determine the collation order of "Bengali Letter Khanda Ta".
[99-A30] Action Item for Peter Constable: Prepare WG2 proposal summary form and submit to WG2 for June 2004 meeting.
[99-A31] Action Item for Asmus Freytag: As liaison to WG2, support adding "Bengali Letter Khanda Ta" to amendment 1 if possible.
[99-A32] Action Item for Rick McGowan, Peter Constable, Editorial Committee: Update the Indic FAQ with appropriate information regarding Khanda Ta.
[99-A33] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Prepare a response for the Indic list and a letter to Om Vikas for Mark's signature. (Needs to be done soon.)
[99-A34] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close the public review issue #30 on Khanda Ta.
C.12.11 Issue 35: Encoding LATIN SMALL LETTER C WITH STROKE as a phonetic symbol
C.12.11.1 C stroke examples from BAE report 1884 [Starner, L2/04-145]
C.12.11.2 Slashed C Feedback [Anderson, L2/04-202]
C.12.11.3 Feedback [L2/04-173]
[99-A35] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close public review issue #35. The character LATIN SMALL LETTER C WITH STROKE will be encoded. Is already accepted for encoding; will not re-consider.
C.12.5 Issue 29: Normalization issue
C.12.5.1 Feedback [L2/04-173]
[99-A36] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Implement the recommendation in PRI #29, taking into account the need for clarification resulting from feedback.
[99-A37] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close PRI #29.
[99-A38] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Prepare and post a proposed update to UAX #15 that incorporates the recommendation of PRI #29. Add new test cases to NormalizationTest.txt in the UCD.
C.12.8 Issue 32: Review of Proposed Update Unicode Technical Report #23 Character Property Model
UTC took no action.
C.12.8.1 Feedback [L2/04-173]
[99-C19] Consensus: Advance draft UTR #23 to UTR #23 after incorporating the editorial feedback in PRI #32 (L2/04-251), update and post as UTR #23.
[99-A39] Action Item for Asmus Freytag: Advance draft UTR #23 to UTR #23 after incorporating the editorial feedback in PRI #32 (L2/04-251), update and post as UTR #23.
[99-A40] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close PRI #32.
C.12.12 Issue 36: Review of Draft Unicode Technical Report #30: Character Foldings
C.12.12.1 DiacriticFolding table [Cowan, L2/04-179]
[99-A41] Action Item for Asmus Freytag, Editorial Committee: Update and post as draft UTR #30.
[99-A42] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Close PRI #36.
June 18, 2004
PRESENT: Agence Intergouvernementale de la Francophonie; Adobe Systems, Inc.; Apple Computer; Hewlett Packard; IBM Corporation; Microsoft Corporation; RLG (by proxy); Sybase, Inc.
NOT PRESENT: Basis Technology; India, MIT; Justsystem Corp; Oracle Corporation; Peoplesoft; Pakistan, NLA; Sun Microsystems
C.16.1 Subcommittee recommendations document. L2/04-259R
Begin Agenda item C.16.1 (sub items discussed under this agenda item are headed in bold italics)
A.15 Proposal on encoding New Tai Lue [L2/04-147]
[99-C20] Consensus: UTC accepts the reordering of Tai Lue as documented in L2/04-164; prefer not to decompose; UTC instructs the liaison to WG2 to negotiate item 5 of the Chinese comments in document L2/04-147, and to be flexible on names.
A.23 Response to WG2-N2713 - combining right dot above [TCA, L2/04-200]
[99-C21] Consensus: Accept the U+0358 combining right dot above.
A.18 Proposal to encode N'ko [Everson, L2/04-172]
[99-A43] Action Item for Asmus Freytag: UTC instructs the liaison to WG2 to not object to putting N'ko into PDAM 2 if WG2 so decides.
A.6 Extended Ethiopic [Yacob, L2/04-143]
[99-C22] Consensus: UTC accepts the repertoire of 116 Ethiopic characters documented in L2/04-143.
[99-A44] Action Item for Asmus Freytag: Support all UTC resolutions at the WG2 meeting.
A.27 Revision of Cuneiform [Everson, L2/04-189,L2/04-223R,L2/04-225]
[99-C23] Consensus: UTC accepts the repertoire and name changes to the cuneiform encoding given in document L2/04-189, and requests that it be included in PDAM 2 of 10646.
A.17.3 Proposal to add ATNAH HAFUKH [Shoulson, Kirk, Everson, L2/03-443]
[99-C24] Consensus: UTC accepts U+05A2 HEBREW ACCENT ATNAH HAFUKH and change the glyph of U+05AA in a future version of the standard.
A.17.4 Two Hebrew punctuation marks [L2/04-089]
[99-C25] Consensus: UTC accepts U+05C5 HEBREW MARK LOWER DOT and U+05C6 HEBREW PUNCTUATION NUN HAFUKHA.
A.17.5 Proposal to add QAMATS QATAN [Everson, Shoulson, L2/04-150]
[99-M3] Motion: UTC accepts U+05BA QAMATS FORM 2 with an annotation referencing U+05B8 QAMATS, and with representative glyph as specified for Qamats Qatan in L2/04-237.
Moved by Ken Whistler, Rick McGowan
5 for
1 against (HP)
3 abstain (Apple, Adobe, RLG)Motion 99-M3 carries.
A.19 Proposal to add four SENĆOŦEN Latin characters [Harvey, et. al., L2/04-170]
[99-C26] Consensus: UTC accepts the 4 characters:
023A LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH STROKE
023B LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C WITH STROKE
023D LATIN CAPITAL LETTER L WITH STROKE
023E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER T WITH DIAGONAL STROKEand moves the previously accepted LATIN SMALL LETTER C WITH STROKE to U+023C.
A.8 Coptic revisions [Everson, Emmel, L2/04-130]
[99-C27] Consensus: UTC replaces the Coptic repertoire with the 114 characters documented in L2/04-130.
[99-C28] Consensus: UTC supports the Coptic glyph changes requested by the Irish comments.
A.22 Proposal to add combining Glagolitic suspension mark [Everson, L2/04-171]
[99-C29] Consensus: UTC accepts U+1DC3 COMBINING SUSPENSION MARK.
A.12 Proposal to encode the HRYVNIA SIGN and the CEDI SIGN [Everson, L2/04-139]
[99-M4] Motion: UTC accepts U+20BA HRYVNIA SIGN and U+20B5 CEDI SIGN.
Moved by Ken Whistler, seconded by Uma
7 for
2 against (MS, HP)
0 abstainMotion 99-M4 carries.
A.10 HPhags-pa script encoding [China, L2/04-134; West, L2-04-174]
[99-C30] Consensus: UTC supports the Irish ballot comments in L2/04-154 regarding Phags-pa and requests the WG2 liaison to support the recommendation from the scripts subcommittee in L2/04-259R.
A.3 Proposal to encode two Bhutanese marks for Dzongkhain [Everson, Flynn, L2/04-007]
[99-C31] Consensus: UTC accepts the two Bhutanese marks U+0FD0 TIBETAN MARK BSKA-SHOG GI MGO RGYAN and U+0FD1 TIBETAN MARK MNYAM YIG GI MGO RGYAN.
A.16 Proposal for Indo-European laryngeals [Everson, Anderson, L2/04-077, L2/04-191]
[99-C32] Consensus: UTC accepts the five subscripted small Latin letters lower case e, a, o, x and schwa at U+2090 - U+2094.
A.2 Tifinagh [Andries, L2/04-142R,L2/04-195]
[99-C33] Consensus: UTC accepts the 55 Tifinagh characters for encoding in the range U+2D30 through U+2D65 and U+2D6F, with Tifinagh block at U+2D30..U+2D7F.
[99-A45] Action Item for Michael Everson, Rick McGowan, Francois Yergeau: Respond to the government of Morocco.
A.11 Proposal to add a roman numeral "canopy" character [Andries, L2/04-137]
Rejected.
[99-A46] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Put the rejection of A.11, L2/04-137 in the Pipeline.
A.7 Supplemental set of IPA combing marks, modifier letters, and five-degree contour tone marks [L2/04-107]
[99-M5] Motion: UTC accepts the repertoire of 23 modifier tone letters in L2/04-107 (N2713) at U+A700 - U+A716 with block name "Modifier Tone Letters" U+A700 - U+A71F.
Moved by Rick McGowan, Seconded by Uma
8 for
0 against
1 abstain (Justsystem)Motion 99-M5 carries.
A.24 Proposal to add 106 compatibility Hanjas of DPR of Korea to CJK compatibility ideographs [DPRK, L2/04-207]
[99-C34] Consensus: UTC does not oppose the encoding of the DPRK 106 compatibility characters, unless contrary evidence is brought forward.
[99-A47] Action Item for Asmus Freytag: Do not oppose the encoding of the DPRK 106 compatibility characters, unless contrary evidence is brought forward.
A.26 Definition of a code position for German umlauts [German NB, L2/04-210]
[99-C35] Consensus: UTC opposes the inclusion of a new character for the umlaut/trema distinction. UTC suggests to DIN that they use CGJ to distinguish umlaut from trema.
[99-M6] Motion: When for German a distinction needs to be maintained for sorting between umlaut and trema, that trema should be represented by a CGJ followed by combining diaeresis, and collation tables should be weighted appropriately.
Moved by Ken Whistler, seconded by Sandra O'Donnell
8 for
0 against
1 abstain (Francophonie)Motion 99-M6 carries.
[99-A48] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Respond to DIN with the UTC recommendation for distinction between umlaut and trema for sorting.
[99-A49] Action Item for Mark Davis: Take to the CLDR-TC the issue of distinction between umlaut and trema for sorting. (Done)
[99-A50] Action Item for Rick McGowan, Editorial Committee: Post a FAQ about trema/umlaut distinction.
A.28 moved to plenary agenda C.16.6 (Two Africanist phoenetic characters [L2/04-242])
[99-C36] Consensus: UTC accepts the two Africanist letters at U+023F LATIN SMALL LETTER S WITH SWASH TAIL and U+0240 LATIN SMALL LETTER Z WITH SWASH TAIL.
C.15.12 Sri Lanka standard for Sinhala [Dias, L2/04-131, L2/04-231, L2/04-235, L2/04-239, L2/04-248]
[99-C37] Consensus: UTC recommends that "right-side" forms of conjuncts in Sinhala be represented by a sequence of <zwj, virama, consonant>.
[99-A51] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Write a response to Sri Lanka re the subcommittee recommendation.
[99-A52] Action Item for Peter Constable: Write a document on consistency of left and right-side conjunct forms in Indic scripts and request an agenda item for the August meeting.
C.17.6 Proposal to encode five additional CJK symbols [West, L2/04-029]
[99-A53] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Document the rejection of two proposed CJK characters. Annotate the names list for these two chars.
C.17.7 Chinese counting rod numerals [Jenkins, L2/04-227]
[99-C38] Consensus: UTC accepts the 18 counting rod numerals for encoding at U+1D360 through U+1D371, with block name "Counting Rod Numerals" U+1D360 - U+1D37F.
[99-A54] Action Item for Deborah Goldsmith: Inform John Jenkins that the UTC made no decision on unification of negative number sign. DONE
A.5 Proposal to encode orthographic glottal stops [Constable, L2/04-224]
[99-C39] Consensus: UTC accepts U+0241 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER GLOTTAL STOP.
[99-A55] Action Item for Ken Whistler: Update the pipeline for all the character acceptances under agenda item C.16.1, subcommittee recommendations.
End Agenda item C.16.1
C.17.1 Ideographic variation selectors [Muller, L2/04-219]
UTC took no action.
A.29 Korean Postal Symbol L2/04-267
[99-A56] Action Item for Asmus Freytag: Liaison to WG2 not to oppose the addition of the Korean Postal Symbol (N2815, L2/04-267).
A.21 Proposal to encode dominoes and other game symbols [Everson, L2/04-163]
[99-C40] Consensus: The game proposal L2/04-163 requires further study.
C.13.2 Unicode Standard Annex #29: Text Boundaries
C.13.2.1 Katakana_Or_Hiragana updates [Davis, L2/04-152; Cowan, L2/04-160]
[99-M7] Motion: Accept the rule documented in L2/04-215.
Moved by Mark Davis, seconded by Deborah Goldsmith
2 for (Apple, IBM)
2 against (MS, HP proxy)
3 abstain (Sybase, RLG, Adobe)Motion 99-M7 fails
[99-M8] Motion: Accept the rule documented in L2/04-215, without the colon.
Moved by Mark Davis, seconded by Deborah Goldsmith
5 for
0 against
2 abstain (HP, RLG)Motion 99-M8 carries.
[99-M9] Motion: Accept A, B, and E1 from document L2/04-152R. Section C should be taken into account during the rewrite of Scripts UAX. Decision on sections D and E2 will be postponed to the August UTC.
Moved by Mark Davis, seconded by Eric Muller
5 for
0 against
2 abstain (HP, RLG)Motion 99-M9 carries.
[99-A57] Action Item for Mark Davis, Editorial Committee: Update UAX #29.
[99-A58] Action Item for Rick McGowan: Draft and post a public review issue discussing "Unicode has received a request to change general category of U+30FB KATAKANA MIDDLE DOT and U+FF65 HALFWIDTH KATAKANA MIDDLE DOT from Connector Punctuation to Other Punctuation and wishes to know if this is a significant improvement" from L2/04-152R section E.2.
[99-A59] Action Item for Lisa Moore: Put L2/04-152R section D onto the August agenda.