This discussion seems to be degenerating, and is probably not of broad
interest until there is some consensus among Hebrew script users. I'd
ask those who are deeply concerned about this issue to take it off-line
among themselves for a while.
Arno Schmitt wrote:
> Jonathan Rosenne schrieb:
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Arno Schmitt [mailto:email@example.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 11:09 PM
> > > To: Unicode List
> > > Subject: Hebrew: inconsistencies
> > >
> > >
> > > Jonathan Rosenne schrieb:
> > > >
> > > > The placement of the Hebrew points is a complex matter, and the Holam is
> > > > part of this complexity. In addition to the placement on the
> > > right of the
> > > > following letter, it is also sometimes elided.
> > > >
> > > > At 11:41 01/06/99 -0700, Peter_Constable@sil.org wrote:
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >There is another question that needs to be asked in this
> > > discussion: how
> > > > >should the "right holem" and "left holem" be encoded. I'd like
> > > to see both
> > > > >Jony and Arno answer this question for the set of examples
> > > Arno provided:
> > > >
> > > > They are both encoded as Holam. This is just a placement issue,
> > > which is a
> > > > matter of typography and not of encoding. If you want, you can
> > > look at it
> > > > as an automatic shaping for Hebrew.
> > > >
> > > > I wonder why, if you (Arno) believe so strongly that the finals
> > > should be
> > > > automatically shaped, you want shape variants encoded in this case.
> > > >
> > > I wrote earlier:
> > > I have no idea how many people have ever wondered why there is a
> > > single free space in the middle of the Hebrew block: 05BA
> > > There used to be both holams, 05B9 and 05BA.
> > > This was simplified to one holam, because: if the program knows
> > > the
> > > rules of Hebrew spelling well (rules like: sin, alef, waw
> > > "attract"
> > > the holam that phonologically "belongs" to the preceding
> > > consonant,
> > > shin "attracts" the holam that phonologically "belongs" to the
> > > following consonant), and knows what the preceding and following
> > > signs are, the program finds the right form of (place for) the
> > > holam.
> > Yes, it was intended for a Holam variant. No, it was not simplified. it was
> > removed because there is no such letter and the distinction (such as Avon)
> > is both purely typographical and uncommon.
> > > But this is true of the five _final_ _shape_ of the consonants in
> > > question as well.
> > No. Why?
> I stated it clearly:
> "the program finds the right form of" the five consonants when it
> knows the following sign.
> > >
> > > I think we have to live with this __inconsistency__.
> > > But there is no excuse for software developers,
> > > - not to give us proper placing of the holam,
> > Yes, considering there are various views as to what is "proper".
> > > - not to provide us with proper shaping of Hebrew consonants (as
> > > is done for Arabic and Indic scripts) - for thus to lazy to type
> > > final forms where they regularly occur.
> > This is a coding issue, whether you mark the exceptions or code the final
> > forms.
> You choose never to answer my questions as to statistics:
> How often to you have a no-final form at the end of a Hebrew word?
> (In what percentage of printed word does it occur in a foreign
> name?, in an abbreviation)?
> > > So, I can give no straightforward answer.
> > > Interestingly, Jony did not recognize "Aoax" (eagle-owl),
> > > as alef (glottal stop), right holam (o), furtive patah (a), het
> > > (x).
> > > Unicode decided that furtive patah, signaling /a/ BEFORE the
> > > letter under which it stands, and patah, signaling /a/ AFTER the
> > > letter under which it stands.
> > Not only Unicode. This is common usage. Only experts know the difference.
> > Normally, both are written the same, under the letter.
> This is ridiculous, EVERY speaker of Hebrew knows whether it is
> lehitkaleax or lehitkalexa
> > > So I have to input for /'oax/ "'oxa" -- the argument being: a
> > > vowel signs are keyboarded (stand in the code stream) AFTER the
> > > vowel with which they are WRITTEN (not before or after according
> > > to when they are SPOKEN).
> > > This being so, the holam (the single holam admitted by Unicode),
> > > must be keyboarded after the letter with which it is written.
> > > Aoax is keyboarded/coded as Aoxa (letter, vowel, letter vowel)
> > > roAsh must then be keyboarded/coded as rAosh, because the holam
> > > sits on the alef.
> > The Holam is placed on the Alef but belongs to the Resh, so it is Resh,
> > Holam, Alef, Shin, Shin Dot.
> > > Since Unicode decided that there is only one patah
> > > AND decided that there is only one holam,
> > > the obviously want us to keyboard holam according to when it is
> > > SPOKEN,
> > > and patah according where it is WRITTEN.
> > > Right, Jony?
> > Wrong.
> This will not do. Here as always, you do not give a reason.
> Do you have such an authoritarian mind that for you the only
> argument is "The relevant body has already decides" or do you not
> know the different between reason and apodictically statement?
> > >
> > > I think I understand you twisted logic, but I would prefer a
> > > consitent way.
> > > And logically, there are only five different SHAPES to the
> > > consonants in question, just like in Arabic.
> > I am preparing a logical and consistent new coding for English, which is
> > notoriously illogical and inconsistent. I have many sources for this,
> > including G. B. Shaw, and I am confident that Arno will support my proposal
> > against any irrational objections our American and British colleagues and
> > other biasd naitiv speekerz of english mai raiz.
> Again, you are mixing up things:
> I do not propose a new orthography of Hebrew (just a more rational
> coding of it letters and signs).
> In the contrary: I cling to the good and well established practice
> of distinguishing between left and right holam, between patah
> before and after.
> You are the simplificateur -- according to your taste!
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