Ar 07:01 -0400 1999-07-21, scríobh Gregg Reynolds:
>Michael Everson wrote:
>
>> Ar 12:56 -0700 1999-07-20, scríobh A. Vine:
>>
>>
>> >Feel free to spell at will, but not including the accents is as correct as
>> >including them.
>>
>> In good typography it is considered better to include them. One should
>> always strive for good typography. I hope everyone reading this feels
>> guilty if they leave out the cedilla the next time they write "façade".
>>
>>
>
>Which English are we talking about? Native speaker speaking here,
>midwestern US clan. The acute (or is it breve?)
You mean "grave".
>accent is ok in certain words such as décor and
>résumé, but I can predict with high confidence that nobody in my
>tribe without a couple years of high school French will feel
>confident about which way the accent should lean.
I was eastern PA clan, and learned these things before I learned French.
Actually the use of the grave is far rarer in both English and French than
the acute.
>I'm pretty sure I was not taught these marks in elementary school. I
>was taught that foreign words are italized, so if you want the cedilla please
>italicize.
No, the rule is that unassimilated foreign words and phrases are
italicized. Naturalized foreign words like "façade" and "naïve" are not
italicized, but neither are their diacritics stripped off by the
naturalization, in good typographic and lexicographic practice.
>In this region writing "facade" with a cedilla would be akin to rolling
>ones Rrr's in Spanish names, if not quite so insufferably pompous.
Such would not have been the case (in my experience) in eastern PA, or in
Arizona or southern California (where accents in Spanish names are quite
common). Isn't there a Cañon Blvd. in Los Angeles?
>Politically correct radio personalities tend to attempt it, sadly, but
>the rest of us are content with our native language, which has neither
>the rolled r nor the cedilla.
Actually the flap in "ladder" which you consider to be a /d/ is
phonetically identical with the single flap in Spanish "pero" which they
consider to be /r/.
A rolled r is a phonetic entity produced by the mouth, however, and a
cedilla is an orthographic entity produced by hand or keyboard or other
means. And the dictionaries prefer "façade" to "facade", c'est ça.
>> Of course orthography is prescriptivist. There are correct ways to spell
>> and incorrect ways to spell. For a subset of the words in our language,
>> there are preferred and less-preferred forms.
>
>Not in English. Orthography has always been gloriously chaotic.
No it isn't. We have a standard orthography in English. "Knight" is always
spelt "knight". There are some "dialectal" deviations but these are few in
number. The _system_ or orthography may be chaotic in instances (rough
through bough though), but the orthos of the orthography is fixed and we
are supposed to adhere to it. Wee ar not inkurijd too rite fonetikli or too
chanje speling just kuz wee wunt too. We get a bad grade in school when we
misspell.
>"Correct" spelling is like "correct" grammar, something up with which
>schoolmasters will not put, but which <i>la gente</i> gladly put up with.
>The tests are 1) does your spelling get yer msg acrost?, and 2) whom do
>you wish to impress?
Naah. Taste is largely a matter of exposure. The more people see good
typography, the more they tend to expect and prefer it.
-- Michael Everson * Everson Gunn Teoranta * http://www.indigo.ie/egt 15 Port Chaeimhghein Íochtarach; Baile Átha Cliath 2; Éire/Ireland Guthán: +353 1 478 2597 ** Facsa: +353 1 478 2597 (by arrangement) 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn; Baile an Bhóthair; Co. Átha Cliath; Éire
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