Re: conjucts beginning with independent vowel?

From: Antoine Leca (
Date: Thu Jan 18 2001 - 06:00:00 EST wrote:
> On 01/17/2001 06:05:15 AM Antoine Leca wrote:
> >Of course, in regular Nagari, one ought to encode A +
> >virama + La/0932 (+ virama if followed by a consonant or at end of the
> >word in Sanskrit), as this is the way it is written.


I am horrified. I beg everyone's pardon, I was wrong above. :-(
Of course, the normal way is A/0905/6 + La/0932 (+ virama if needed).
No need for a virama between the A and the La.

> This is actually done?

The way I wrote yesterday, NO, of course.

> I'm trying to sort out what should be proposed for Syloti Nagri. There are
> four consonants that can be conjoined to a preceding independent vowel.
> From what I understand, these are mainly used for Arabic borrowings in
> Islamic texts, but possibly also in English borrowings. So, for example,
> Allah is written as al-la-h.

Well, my understanding is that it should be encoded (and is encoded normally)
  0906 0932 094D 0932 093E 0939 [094D]
(the last virama may be dropped these days because the final a will be mute,
 but should be retained in Sanskrit because it should be pronounced.)

And the glyph representation is then
  standalone-a aa-matra lla-conjunct aa-matra full-ha [or ha-halanta in Sanskrit]
  standalone-a aa-matra half-la full-la aa-matra full-ha [or ha-halanta in Sanskrit]

> I hadn't noticed the vocalic L and LL in Devanagari and Bengali before.
> These do give a precedent of consonantal sounds encoded as combining marks.

In fact, they are not consonantal sound, they are [supposed to be] vocalic,
i.e. continuous (long vocalic LLRI is for grammarians only, it does not
really exist). However, I have problem to fully understand how they are
pronounced when alone. The only real use of it is in the Sanskrit root
kl,p (0915 0962 092A), and then it becomes distorted as "*klip" with a
very short i.

> There is a difference from the Syloti case, though: in D and B, these are
> distinct marks, discontiguous from the base character,

At least in Nagari, the dependent lri may attach to the base ka. And
usually the ka is a bit reduced in size, to let some space for the full
drawing of the l to take place.
The result looks like the kla stacked conjunct (Sanskrit way, i.e. when
the low la has a rounded symetric form instead of the one it takes in Hindi
or in the Unicode Standard), with just a small difference in the right tail.

> whereas the marks in
> the Syloti case are conjoined, being obligatorily attached to the vertical
> stem of the base (independent vowel) character.

In Nagari, a dependent lri attached to a A will attach, I think. At least this
is the way I shall write it.


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