Re: U+0345 COMBINING GREEK YPOGEGRAMMENI not usable in other scripts as "hook below"?

From: Richard Wordingham (
Date: Fri Jun 16 2006 - 16:01:53 CDT

  • Next message: John Hudson: "Re: U+0345 COMBINING GREEK YPOGEGRAMMENI not usable in other scripts as "hook below"?"

    Philippe Verdy wrote on Friday, June 16, 2006 at 4:00 PM

    > From: "Karl Pentzlin" <>
    >> When looking at some German dialect writing systems which use a
    >> diacritic very similar to the Greek iota subscript, I had the idea
    >> that U+0345 COMBINING GREEK YPOGEGRAMMENI could fit for that use.
    >> But I suspect that for its casing properties, this is not possible.
    >> Of course, an a or e with hook below shall uppercase to an A or E
    >> with hook below, not to an A or E with anything adscripted.

    And why should one presume it would appear adscript? For example, in
    Gentium it appears adscript with a capital alpha, eta or omega, but
    subscript with a capital iota, upsilon or 'A'.

    But I was perfectly serious when I said that you should consider its
    meaning, and try to determine the author's intention. He may not have had
    an intention of writing anything distinct from U+031C COMBINING LEFT HALF
    RING BELOW, and ogonek may simply have appeared to be at most a variant of
    the same diacritic. Using a subscript iota is rather like using an omega
    instead of 'w' because someone's handwritten 'w's look more like omegas.
    (In my handwriting, U+031C, U+0328 and U+0345 are indistinguishable.)

    A much more serious issue is the identity of the base vowels. Are the
    diacritics being applied to U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A or to U+0251 U+LATIN
    SMALL LETTER ALPHA? I suspect we see the former in Section 2.1, but in a
    font that makes no distinction. I don't think the co-occurrence of the
    vowel with U+03B1 GREEK SMALL LETTER ALPHA in 'mädlα' or 'mɑ̈dlα' is

    > Isn't there a "vertical line below" diacritic (U+0329) in the general
    > combining characters block, instead of importing a diacritic from the
    > Greek block which has its own specificities for Greek?
    > I know it was used for phonologic (syllable marks) or phonetic (additional
    > interlinear notation of stress) or in Yoruba (I don't know what it means
    > there), but isn't it very similar to a subscript I ? Does it absolutely
    > need to be attached like a leg?

    In Yoruba it means the vowel is open.

    > Consider also U+0328 (ogonek) which is more cursive.
    > Is there also a dot above this subscrit (i.e. are you sure it denotes some
    > related meaning with I, such as velarization, or L, such as central
    > palatalization for a more "liquid" vowel)? Could it have similarities with
    > the function of a Cyrillic soft sign?

    The meaning is spelt out quite clearly in - it
    means 'open'.


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