From: Michael Everson (email@example.com)
Date: Sat Jul 05 2008 - 18:47:39 CDT
Hi Michael Everson and Unicode Group List
On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 3:23 AM, Michael Everson <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
At 14:28 -0600 2008-07-04, Doug Ewell wrote:
>>>Ngwe Tun quoted the Myanmar Times, which evidently doesn't have a
>>>lot of on-staff experts in character encoding:
>>>>"The new Unicode font not only includes the Myanmar language, but
>>>>also other ethnic languages that are accepted by Unicode
>>>Unicode encodes characters that are used for writing languages.
>>> It does not "accept" languages.
>>Be fair, Doug. You don't speak Burmese. They mean, of course,
>>"characters that support Burmese and also a number of minority
>>languages in the Union of Myanmar".
>Why you write *Be Fair*? Is it not true?
Doug was criticizing the non-native speaker who wrote the Myanmar
Times article for confusing "font" and "language" and
misunderstanding what the Unicode does. I was telling him to "be
fair" to the author of that article.
>How strange another sentence in burmese in their article? Ireland
>company collecting Myanmar Glyphs and Techmonation Company developed
>programs? Could it be done?
Are you criticizing me (Evertype), Ngwe Tun, for working with Htoo
Myint Naung (Technomation) on a multi-platform Myanmar script font
which supports not only characters used in the Burmese language but
also characters used in other languages? I don't believe you ought to
be, if you are.
>Do you know other ethnics language too? Only Native Speaker can be
>done for their Native Language.
I don't need to speak Mon in order to make a font that supports Mon.
>I can accept that Myanmar Native speaker organized burmese and
>ethnics glyphs and programs the Ireland company? Even you missed
>some ethnics characters in past proposal, wasn't it?
We can only encode characters we know about. In fairness, I have
worked very hard to support the Burmese language as well as many
minority languages in your country.
>You amended several characters again and again in Myanmar Block.
What do you mean? Glyph design? Or added characters?
>>>>At present, Shan, Mon and Kayin font types will be included in
>>>>this Unicode font," he said.
>>>For clarity, Unicode also does not specify, produce, or approve fonts.
>>The article refers to a font which is being developed that supports
>>Unicode 5.1 characters.
>We have already had Myanmar Unicode Fonts. There are 3 free fonts
>and 2 of 3 fonts are released as open source license.
I don't believe that any of them are multi-platform fonts, are they?
>So, Everyone can be used those fonts in software and web sites. But
>There are no specification for Mon, Shan and Karen encoding.
That's not true. Unicode 5.1 contains characters which support the
Mon, Shan, and Karen languages. There are also more characters being
encoded no that support the Paike and Aiton languages.
>You can make new fonts for any software or specific web site. But It
>shouldn't be monopolized the public interested web sites like
>wikipedia or google or youtube or facebook.
I don't know what you are talking about. I am aware of problems with
the Myanmar Wikipedia. I don't know what you are talking about in
terms of the other three sites.
>>>>"We could complete the development of the font by the last week
>>>>of August when we get confirmation from the Unicode Consortium's
>>>>meeting to be held in Hong Kong at that time," Ko Htoo Myint
>>>The Unicode Web page doesn't show any meetings in Hong Kong in
>>>August. There is a WG2 meeting scheduled for October in Hong Kong.
>>>Such a meeting might involve discussion of the 18 Myanmar
>>>characters still remaining in the Pipeline.
>>The meeting is, as you say, in October, and Htoo Myint Naung is,
>>prudently, awaiting the results of PDAM 6.2 before proceeding with
>>>>The present font used in the Myanmar version of Wikipedia is
>>>>Padauk, which was written according to the Unicode 4.1 standard,
>>>Which means roughly that it supports only those characters encoded
>>>as of Unicode 4.1 (March 2005), and not the ones encoded since
>>>then. (But see below.)
>>The Myanmar Wikipedia is a mess, of course, because of the plethora
>>of Unicode and pseudo-Unicode fonts out there.
Actually Padauk 2.4 has been updated.
>User will try with current Myanmar Unicode Font. It's substinable
>right now. You can develop another font. But do not make specificed
>fonts to download. Getting SysOp in Wikipedia is not right duty for
>making font and setting own font in wikipedia.
This discussion is not on-topic for the Unicode list.
>>>I got some question after reading. To clarify the truth as in.
>>>1) Had Unicode published or released representation of Mon, Shan
>>>and Karen encoding specification document like UTN#11?
>>There is no UTN, but there are now Mon, Shan, and Karen characters encoded.
>>>If it's not listed in the "Unicode Technical Notes" page, there is
>>>no UTN on this. You might check with the authors of UTN #11 to
>>>see if they would consider updating their paper to add a
>>>discussion of these additional languages written with the Myanmar
>>Far as I know there aren't major issues involving the new characters.
>so, In Mon, Shan and Karen has different storage order and still
>karen ppl are arguing dot below position. How do you measure major
>or minor? For proposal writer, It might not be major? You will not
>type or use in daily. We must use those character in daily purpose.
>Don't mentioned urgency level comparison by your soul?
I am confident that we analyzed Shan, Mon, and Karen characters
correctly when we encoded them. I am confident that the National
Bodies who reviewed the proposals and compared the evidence with the
proposed code tables.
>>>>2) Will Unicode Consortium meeting decide Fonts for Burmese,
>>>>Shan, Mon and Karen?
>>>Unicode does not "decide" fonts. They encode characters, whose
>>>glyphs may subsequently be added to fonts.
>>Yes, I don't know what Ngwe Tun is asking here.
>:) I'm not Unicode Member yet. That's why I'm asking here. If
>Unicode Consoritum will decide Fonts in internal meeting, I will be
>the part of Unicode Member. I will pay for Unicode Members Fees.
The Unicode Consortium encodes characters. Font implementations are
not "decided" by the Unicode Consortium. I really don't know what you
mean by "decide fonts".
>>>>3) Are there any practice for setting default font in other
>>>>language wikipedia? (it's out of question for Unicode Mailing
>>>It is. Having said that, Wikipedia (like many Web sites) uses a
>>>stylesheet to determine the display font. Since I don't have
>>>Paduak, when I visit the Myanmar Wikipedia page, I see it in
>>>Code2000. You would have to tell your browser to ignore the fonts
>>>specified by the stylesheet and use yours instead, which often
>>>doesn't turn out as well as hoped.
>>I have been talking to Jimmy Wales about helping to sort out the
>>Myanmar Wikipedia, and I agree that this list is not the forum for
>>discussion about it.
>Hey It's cross-road of Unicode and Wikipedia. So, There are a lot of
>localziation experts subscribed that mailing list. They can answer
>good explanation here. You may not answer good question here because
>you are one of font developer for Myanmar Wikipedia.
I think it's inappropriate for you to suggest what you seem to be
suggesting here on a public forum.
>skip it, Others people will answer more detail. I sincerely
>mentioned that it's out of question. But someone may know about
>Wikimedia Foundation practice.
I suspect Sarasvati will wish this discussion to take place elsewhere.
>I got good explanation by Doug Ewell. I will spread information by
>Myanmar Media. Myanmar People are lack in references. Stupid Group
>and Myanmar biased Media were making news with wrong information.
>You may not know that situation.
I have my own sources in Myanmar and am not interested in any feuding.
-- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
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