RE: Mayan numerals (again)

I believe that the Mayan numerals have proof of sufficient modern usage for their encoding (which I have said before). For this, they could be called Modern Mayan numerals. If the future encoding model for ancient Mayan (whenever available) would require them to have a different encoding in that context, that should not pose a serious problem, since that encoding would only be for research purposes of ancient texts rather than for modern usage.

Sincerely, Erkki

-----Alkuperäinen viesti-----
Lähettäjä: unicode-bounce_at_unicode.org [mailto:unicode-bounce_at_unicode.org] Puolesta Marion Gunn
Lähetetty: 1. heinäkuuta 2013 17:40
Vastaanottaja: Frédéric Grosshans; Jameson Quinn; 'Unicode List'
Aihe: Re: Mayan numerals (again)

I also remember your proposal, Jameson, which I believe to be worthwhile and urgently needed by the community of users you described at that time (whether the full discussion following on your sending your proposal to 'Unicode List' <unicode_at_unicode.org> has been preserved for reference in the archives of this list, I can not say for certain, though I would hope and expect that it has). As to procedures, all I can add of help to the last line of Fréderic's msg (below) of today, is that my best guess (from long observation of transactions on this and related lists spanning a couple of decades)— my best guess is that the only sure way is to succeed with any proposal put to Unicode is to the right insiders on your side, that is, people to whom Unicode pays attention, because the substance of your proposal, however valid and whatever its practical merit for your user community, is most unlikely to gain success unless you can recruit the personal support of private individuals/companies with influence in/over
Unicode, which you may be able to work out for yourself by observing such e-mails as surface publicly here.

I wish you every success, because I believe you deserve that.
mg

Scríobh 24/06/2013 09:26, Frédéric Grosshans:
>
>
> Le 23 juin 2013 21:37, "Jameson Quinn" <jameson.quinn_at_gmail.com
> <mailto:jameson.quinn_at_gmail.com>> a écrit :
> >
> > Last year, I started a discussion about proposing the Mayan numerals
> for inclusion in Unicode. Several people on the list supported this
> idea, and encouraged me to submit a proposal. I did not manage to do
> so last year, but I am ready to now.
> >
> > I have access to dozens of different books with their page numbers,
> tables of contents, and publication dates in mayan numerals. Several
> of them use the numerals in other ways, such as numbered lists or
> century numbers (ie, "siglo 16", 16th century, with 16 in Mayan
> numbers). All of these are from a single publishing house, and I know
> of 2 other publishers who use similar practices. None of the samples I
> have are textbooks, and it is common for math textbooks here in
> Guatemala to have a section on Mayan numerals, typically with a few
> simple addition problems or the like.
>
> The more diverse your examples are, the better. By the way, I recall
> the post I wrote last year with examples of those numerals in
> non-Mayan precolumbian context :
> http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2012-m09/0071.html
> I really think these examples strengthen the case for encoding these
> numerals before and separately from the Mayan glyphs. The encoding of
> the Mayan writing system will be a complex endeavour, and the
> encoding model clearly cannot be chosen now. This means that the
> numerals you propose may or may not be used a few years (decades ?)
> down the line, for the encoding of Mayan. If they are "naturally"
> useful for other scripts, it's not an unsolvable problem. If they are
> only for Mayan writing, it is a show stopper.
>
> That's also why I think that "Mesoamerican bar and dots numerals" are
> a better name than "Mayan numerals".
> >
> > The publisher of the books I have is interested, and would probably
> sign on to my proposal, though it would take about a month for them to
> get full consensus on this.
>
> A month is quite short compared to the typical encoding delay (a few
> years). And you can submit their support letter separately from your
> proposal.
>
> >
> > I can also provide photos of Guatemalan currency notes, which have
> mayan as well as arabic numerals on them.
> >
> > I'd like to propose 40 glyphs: the vertical and horizontal versions
> of the digits 0-19. The zero glyph would be in it's "shell" form; the
> several minor variants of this form would be considered as the same
> base glyph.
>
> Ok
>
> >This initial proposal would not include head variants or the
> petroglyphic "flower" zero, nor would it include petroglyphic marginal
> decorations on the glyphs for 1, 6, 11, and 16, as all of those are
> generally used in a context of fully glyphic writing, which has a
> number of difficult technical issues to resolve before it's ready for
> unicode. (Although I could provide at least one modern example of a
> glyphic text; this is at least to some degree a living art today,
> though it was dead for centuries.)
>
> To me these examples are part of the real Mayan writing system and
> will have to wait at least until the encoding model of Mayan is
> decided (ie a long time)
> >
> > I'd like to know what should be my next step, and if anyone who's
> more experienced with unicode procedures would like to advise me more
> closely.
>
> I'd be interested to wprk with you on this proposal, but you should
> know that, contrarily to man6 readers of this list, I have no
> experience in Unicode procedures beyond what I could guess by reading
> archived proposals available on Internet.
>
> Frédéric Grosshans
>

--
Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991)
27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an
Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh,
Co. Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland.
* mgunn_at_egt.ie * eamonn_at_egt.ie *