Re: Custom fonts (was: Tolkien wanta-be)

From: Mark Davis (mark.davis@jtcsv.com)
Date: Tue Mar 18 2003 - 11:48:46 EST

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    > I do say that if a webpage has U+E000 defined as banana and I have it
    > defined as apple, that then their range U+E000-U+F8FF is a different PUA,
    > belonging to a different extension of unicode than my range U+E000-U+F8FF

    It is *not* a "different PUA". The PUA is defined to be simply a range of
    code points, PUA does *not* mean the interpretation of code points in that
    range. What you appear to be trying to say is something like:

    "If a webpage uses the private use code point U+E000 to represent 'banana"
    and I use it to represent "apple", then they are interpreting code points in
    the the PUA range (U+E000-U+F8FF) differently, defining a different
    extension of Unicode than mine."

    Mark
    ________
    mark.davis@jtcsv.com
    IBM, MS 50-2/B11, 5600 Cottle Rd, SJ CA 95193
    (408) 256-3148
    fax: (408) 256-0799

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Chris Jacobs" <c.t.m.jacobs@hccnet.nl>
    To: "Unicode mailing list" <unicode@unicode.org>
    Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 08:54
    Subject: Re: Custom fonts (was: Tolkien wanta-be)

    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: "Pim Blokland" <pblokland@planet.nl>
    > To: "Unicode mailing list" <unicode@unicode.org>
    > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 12:43 PM
    > Subject: Re: Custom fonts (was: Tolkien wanta-be)
    >
    >
    > > Chris Jacobs schreef:
    > >
    > > > If I interpret a B font declaration on a webpage as a private
    > > > agreement
    > > > that for data in that font on that webpage a PUA will be used were
    > > > U+E000 is
    > > > a banana that does not imply that I claim anything about which PUA
    > > > I use for
    > > > other purposes.
    > >
    > > You keep making it more and more difficult for the rest of us to
    > > follow you.
    > > To start with, your use of "PUA" is not what is generally meant by
    > > "PUA".
    > > There is no such thing as "a" PUA; there is only one Private Use
    > > Area, which consist of all the codepoints that will not be assigned
    > > a specific use by the Unicode Consortium. You cannot say that the
    > > range of codepoints U+E000..U+E0FF is a different PUA than
    > > U+E100..U+E1FF.
    >
    > I don't say that the range of codepoints U+E000-U+E0FF is a different PUA
    > than U+E100-U+E1FF.
    > I do say that if a webpage has U+E000 defined as banana and I have it
    > defined as apple, that then their range U+E000-U+F8FF is a different PUA,
    > belonging to a different extension of unicode than my range U+E000-U+F8FF
    >
    > > Secondly, you must be aware there is not, and will not be, a rule
    > > about what characters in that area should look like. Yet you insist
    > > on trying to convince everybody it's a good idea to remap, for
    > > example "banana" to U+E100, even if the font calls it U+E000. You
    > > keep on about what a good idea it would be to be able to rearrange
    > > code points such that no matter how many fonts you have in use,
    > > there is always a banana at U+E100. This is a restriction, an
    > > unwelcome intrusion on the PUA!
    >
    > Being able to do things is not a restriction.
    >
    > > You also can't seem to decide if this is just something you want to
    > > do on your own computer, or if you also want to use this scheme for
    > > information interchange with other users.
    >
    > That is not something that should be decided upon here once and for all.
    If
    > I want to use this scheme for information interchange with some other
    users
    > then I establish private agreements with those other users.
    >
    > > Now what you do in the privacy of your own home is none of our
    > > concern, but when communicating with the outside world, there are
    > > certain rules and guidelines you should abide by. And one of those
    > > guidelines is a plaintext file should not have PUA characters in
    > > them, unless its author also specifies it should be displayed using
    > > a certain font.
    >
    > Nope. Specifying a font is just one method of specifying a private
    > agreement, but certainly not the only possible one.
    >
    > Suppose I want in my PUA control characters, like a <MOVE> or a <COPY>
    > system support operation, How do you want to define those characters in a
    > font?
    >
    > > Now if the font it should use is known, the proper
    > > codepoint to display this banana of yours is also known, because
    > > this info is in the font. Ergo, no need to remap!
    > > Since not all fonts have a banana, it really doesn't make much sense
    > > to not specify a font. The computer wouldn't know what to do!
    > >
    > > Lastly, I must say I think it's a pity that the suggestion I made
    > > yesterday has been ignored so quietly. You know, in a HTML
    > > environment, to retrieve names for characters from the font file
    > > itself, to relieve the author from the task of having to enter
    > > numerical values.
    > > For an example, suppose you have a font named "Tengwar Quenya", with
    > > a character named "hwesta" at U+E00B,
    >
    > Then you would no longer be able to specify the font by the font name,
    since
    > you would have two fonts named "Tengwar Quenya".
    >
    > > you could use it in an XML
    > > file by defining an entity, <!ENTITY hwesta "&#xE00B;">. Now my
    > > suggestion was the browser program which displays this file should
    > > be able to look at the font information in the XML file, open the
    > > font file and retrieve the names of all characters in it, so it can
    > > show the "&hwesta;" character (and all other characters) without
    > > needing a long list of ENTITY entries in the XML.
    > >
    > > Anyone else think this would be a good idea?
    > >
    > > Pim Blokland
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    >



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