Re: Suggestions in Unicode Indic FAQ

From: Aditya Gokhale (
Date: Thu Jan 30 2003 - 02:33:56 EST

  • Next message: Marco Cimarosti: "RE: Suggestions in Unicode Indic FAQ"

    To support what Kayur has to say I will add few more things.

    Take for instance a "vowel sigh" (matras as we call here in India) e.g. say is e (U093F), is combined with a consonant like ka (U0915) in the sequence it forms ke. (Please see the first image). The repositioning of the shape happens automatically. If the anyone puts the e matra (U093F) first and then the consonant ka (U0915) then they should be highlighted, putting a space can still make them look like ka. So to make this mistake very explicit, we have to put a dotted circle. If wrong combination is stored, it will create lot of problem in searching the data as well as in sorting. Please refer BIS (Bureau of Indian Standards) ISCII 91 / 88 documentation for this where in


    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Keyur Shroff" <>
    To: "'Unicode Mailing List'" <>
    > --- Marco Cimarosti <> wrote:
    > > Keyur Shroff wrote:
    > > > But sometimes a user may want visual representation of these
    > > > symbols in two different ways: with dotted circle and
    > > > without dotted circle.
    > >
    > > Why not using a dotted circle character explicity, when you want to see
    > > one?
    > Note that whenever I mention the word "combining mark" I am really talking
    > about "vowel signs (matras)" and other modifiers in Indic scripts which is
    > script dependent. I am sorry if I have confused you with the combining
    > diacritical marks in the block [U+0300-U+036F] which I really didn't mean.
    > Let me give a proper example this time. Consider a "Vowel Sign E" [U+0947]
    > appearing after any non-consonant character. This sign is generally
    > attached to the consonants. It has zero advance width with negative left
    > side bearing in the font. Clearly, since in this case the sign is not
    > preceded by any consonant base, it has to be rendered using one of the
    > mechanisms specified in fallback rendering of non-spacing marks. If we
    > render it with space, as you said, then we have to insert "space" character
    > at the time of fallback rendering (which can be taken care in rendering
    > pipeline) even though space character is not present in backing store of
    > the application. Now in order to render it with dotted circle if we
    > introduce the circle in the text before this sign then also the circle is
    > invalid base for this "Vowel Sign E". As a result, again fallback rendering
    > will take place with rendering circle and the vowel sign positionally
    > separate. In this case first dotted circle will apear which will be
    > followed by vowel sign (matra) on top of space character.
    > If you know any other way to solve this problem then please explain. Also
    > let me know if I have misinterpreted the text written in Unicode standard.
    > >
    > > > Example of
    > > > this could be RAsup on top of dotted circle and RAsup on top of space
    > > > character. Current use of space character to eliminate dotted
    > > > circle is really painful and may create problems in determining
    > > > language and syllable boundaries.
    > >
    > > Languages or syllable boundaries have nothing to do with this. These
    > > special
    > > sequences should *never* be part of any syllabe or word in any language:
    > > they are just a way of showing the shape of a glyph, to be used when,
    > > e.g., talking about typography or spelling.
    > Then how can we rake care of fallback mechanism?
    > Thanks for taking pain for answering my queries :-)
    > - Keyur
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