Re: ISO 15924 draft fixes

From: Philippe Verdy (
Date: Thu May 20 2004 - 16:56:49 CDT

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    From: "Antoine Leca" <>
    > > Antoine Leca a écrit :
    > >
    > >> The French name for Hang looks strange. It happened to be "hangul
    > >> (hangul, hangeul)" (after quite a bit of discussion.)
    > Sorry guys. For reasons known to itself, my mailer refused to post in UTF-8
    > this morning. I meant "hangul(hangul, hangeul)".
    > According to a native <> the
    > correct form are the ones between parenthesis (with an added apostrophe
    > between han'gul).
    > : From: "Jian YANG"
    > : Subject: Re: Re: (iso15924.275) "Hangul (Hang~ul, Hangeul)"
    > : as script name (~is adiacritical mark)
    > : Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 15:49:25 -0400
    > :
    > :
    > : «Hangeul» = Norme de romanisation du Ministère de
    > : l'Éducation de la Corée du Sud;
    > : «Hangul» = Romanisation Mc-Cune-Reischauer (la forme exacte
    > : est «Han'gul» : «u» with breve, et non caron; mais on a
    > : enlevé le signe diacritique pour accommoder la convention de
    > : ascii, sans doute);
    > On Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:51 PM, Patrick Andries va escriure:
    > >
    > > The name in ISO/CEI 10646 (F) is « hangûl » from a Corean dictionary
    > > and a Corean grammar published by the Inalco (Langues O').
    > Clearly, the Langues'O did adapt it to French typographical possibilities,
    > reversing the breve accent into a circumflex.
    > > Another
    > > suggested form in some sources, to appromixate the pronounciation.
    > > is « hangueul »
    > This is the other form, with an added, euphonical u after the g, to avoid a
    > complete misprononciation.
    > About whether all this right or not, I do not know. But I believe this text
    > did go through two ballots against the very people of Langues'O (?), so we
    > have no reason to correct now what was accepted in the standard. The only
    > choice right now is to type exactly what was printed, since I understand we
    > do not have any more the master that served to the [F]DIS texts.
    > Since I am not a member of TC46, and furthermore I was away from the process
    > last year, I might very easily be wrong.

    I see no real problem if not all the different orthographies are listed or if
    they are not used universally. As long as the name is non ambiguous. What will
    be important for interchange of data will not be this name but the Code (or N°,
    or even ID in UAX#24 properties).

    So there's nothing wrong if "Han'gul" is shown to users without the prefered
    apostrophe (I don't mean here not the single quote!), or with a caron or
    circumflex instead of breve (to dapat to the rendering or encoding context in
    which this name would be exposed to users), or even without any diacritic (my
    opinion is that substituting a diacritic for another is worse than just removing
    the diacritic that can't be displayed or encoded).

    French normally has no caron and no breve, and the circumflex is used to mark a
    slight alteration of the vowel because of an assimilated consonnant in the
    historical orthograph (most often this circumflex in French denotes a lost "s"
    after the vowel).

    So the curcumflex on "Hangul" would be inappropriate for French, as well as
    "Hangeul" (breaks the common reading rules). "Hangul" and "Han'gul" are more
    acceptable, as well as "Hangoeul" with a "oe" ligature, or "Han'goeul" with an
    additional apostrophe, which would have been even more accurate but have been
    seen nowhere for now.

        The problem of apostrophes is that French keyboards don't have it, but only
    have a single-quote. Handling the presence of quotes as meaning apostrophe is
    limited in French to very few words as a mark of ellision of some characters,
    not as a mark for the phonetic.
        In "Han'gul" there's no ellision but its absence places a nasalisation of
    the previous letter "a". A solution would be to write "Hanngul". However there
    are now lots of proper names _ending_ in "-an" (such as "Alan") for which the
    nasalisation is easy to avoid by readers (so "Han", i.e. the ideographic script
    of Chinese, is appropriate in French, but not "Hanzi", "Hanja", or "Hangul",
    where almlost all native readers would not pronounce the "n" but would nasalize
    the previous vowel "a"). The simplest solution to avoid nasalization is to place
    another n after it in French (nazalisation never occurs with double-n in
        This would give in French: "Hanngul" (or "Hanngoeul", or is it "Hanngoul"
    ?), "Hannzi" (to avoid pronounce it like in "enzyme"), "Hannja" (to avoid
    pronounce it like in "en japonais"), but still "Han" (preferably to "Hann")...


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