From: Ngwe Tun (ngwestar@gmail.com)
Date: Sun Jul 06 2008 - 19:33:42 CDT
Hi Michael,
On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 6:17 AM, Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com>
wrote:
> Hi Michael Everson and Unicode Group List
>
> On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 3:23 AM, Michael Everson <everson@evertype.com>
> wrote:
> At 14:28 -0600 2008-07-04, Doug Ewell wrote:
>
> Ngwe Tun quoted the Myanmar Times, which evidently doesn't have a lot of
>>>> on-staff experts in character encoding:
>>>>
>>>> "The new Unicode font not only includes the Myanmar language, but also
>>>>> other ethnic languages that are accepted by Unicode Consortium.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unicode encodes characters that are used for writing languages. It does
>>>> not "accept" languages.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Be fair, Doug. You don't speak Burmese. They mean, of course, "characters
>>> that support Burmese and also a number of minority languages in the Union of
>>> Myanmar".
>>>
>>
>> Why you write *Be Fair*? Is it not true?
>>
>
> Doug was criticizing the non-native speaker who wrote the Myanmar Times
> article for confusing "font" and "language" and misunderstanding what the
> Unicode does. I was telling him to "be fair" to the author of that article.
>
We are trying to give awareness to Myanmar Media. You can learn from those
mistakes. You can't know others Myanmar media wrong information in burmese
version till.
>
> How strange another sentence in burmese in their article? Ireland company
>> collecting Myanmar Glyphs and Techmonation Company developed programs? Could
>> it be done?
>>
>
> Are you criticizing me (Evertype), Ngwe Tun, for working with Htoo Myint
> Naung (Technomation) on a multi-platform Myanmar script font which supports
> not only characters used in the Burmese language but also characters used in
> other languages? I don't believe you ought to be, if you are.
>
> Do you know other ethnics language too? Only Native Speaker can be done for
>> their Native Language.
>>
>
> I don't need to speak Mon in order to make a font that supports Mon.
of course. but font can't be smart. Hey It's not straight forward order like
latin font.
>
>
> I can accept that Myanmar Native speaker organized burmese and ethnics
>> glyphs and programs the Ireland company? Even you missed some ethnics
>> characters in past proposal, wasn't it?
>>
>
> We can only encode characters we know about. In fairness, I have worked
> very hard to support the Burmese language as well as many minority languages
> in your country.
>
> You amended several characters again and again in Myanmar Block.
>>
>
> What do you mean? Glyph design? Or added characters?
you added shan digits again. you missed mon character in first proposal. You
changed Myanmar Zero glyph design several times.
>
>
> At present, Shan, Mon and Kayin font types will be included in this
>>>>> Unicode font," he said.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For clarity, Unicode also does not specify, produce, or approve fonts.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The article refers to a font which is being developed that supports
>>> Unicode 5.1 characters.
>>>
>>
>> We have already had Myanmar Unicode Fonts. There are 3 free fonts and 2 of
>> 3 fonts are released as open source license.
>>
>
> I don't believe that any of them are multi-platform fonts, are they?
Of course not. Those fonts are not intended to use multi-platform. Because
Mac users are very less. We could change Mac version soon.
>
>
> So, Everyone can be used those fonts in software and web sites. But There
>> are no specification for Mon, Shan and Karen encoding.
>>
>
> That's not true. Unicode 5.1 contains characters which support the Mon,
> Shan, and Karen languages. There are also more characters being encoded no
> that support the Paike and Aiton languages.
Be aware, Unicode 5.1 contains Mon, Shan and Karen characters. We do need
some transformation specification for characters to glyph. You may know that
characters encoding and language specific encoding are much different. We do
need specific storage order for Mon, Shan and Karen. It doesn't covered in
Unicode 5.1 Characters chart and specification.
>
>
> You can make new fonts for any software or specific web site. But It
>> shouldn't be monopolized the public interested web sites like wikipedia or
>> google or youtube or facebook.
>>
>
> I don't know what you are talking about. I am aware of problems with the
> Myanmar Wikipedia. I don't know what you are talking about in terms of the
> other three sites.
>
> "We could complete the development of the font by the last week of
>>>>> August when we get confirmation from the Unicode Consortium's meeting to be
>>>>> held in Hong Kong at that time," Ko Htoo Myint Naung said.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Unicode Web page doesn't show any meetings in Hong Kong in August.
>>>> There is a WG2 meeting scheduled for October in Hong Kong. Such a meeting
>>>> might involve discussion of the 18 Myanmar characters still remaining in the
>>>> Pipeline.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The meeting is, as you say, in October, and Htoo Myint Naung is,
>>> prudently, awaiting the results of PDAM 6.2 before proceeding with early
>>> implementation.
>>>
>>> The present font used in the Myanmar version of Wikipedia is Padauk,
>>>>> which was written according to the Unicode 4.1 standard,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which means roughly that it supports only those characters encoded as of
>>>> Unicode 4.1 (March 2005), and not the ones encoded since then. (But see
>>>> below.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> The Myanmar Wikipedia is a mess, of course, because of the plethora of
>>> Unicode and pseudo-Unicode fonts out there.
>>>
>>
> Actually Padauk 2.4 has been updated.
>
> User will try with current Myanmar Unicode Font. It's substinable right
>> now. You can develop another font. But do not make specificed fonts to
>> download. Getting SysOp in Wikipedia is not right duty for making font and
>> setting own font in wikipedia.
>>
>
> This discussion is not on-topic for the Unicode list.
>
> I got some question after reading. To clarify the truth as in.
>>>> 1) Had Unicode published or released representation of Mon, Shan and
>>>> Karen encoding specification document like UTN#11?
>>>>
>>>
>>> There is no UTN, but there are now Mon, Shan, and Karen characters
>>> encoded.
>>
>> It's not enough for Mon, Shan and Karen.
>
>>>
>>> If it's not listed in the "Unicode Technical Notes" page, there is no UTN
>>>> on this. You might check with the authors of UTN #11 to see if they would
>>>> consider updating their paper to add a discussion of these additional
>>>> languages written with the Myanmar script.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Far as I know there aren't major issues involving the new characters.
>>>
>>
>> so, In Mon, Shan and Karen has different storage order and still karen ppl
>> are arguing dot below position. How do you measure major or minor? For
>> proposal writer, It might not be major? You will not type or use in daily.
>> We must use those character in daily purpose. Don't mentioned urgency level
>> comparison by your soul?
>>
>
> I am confident that we analyzed Shan, Mon, and Karen characters correctly
> when we encoded them. I am confident that the National Bodies who reviewed
> the proposals and compared the evidence with the proposed code tables.
>
> 2) Will Unicode Consortium meeting decide Fonts for Burmese, Shan, Mon
>>>>> and Karen?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unicode does not "decide" fonts. They encode characters, whose glyphs
>>>> may subsequently be added to fonts.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I don't know what Ngwe Tun is asking here.
>>>
>>
>> :) I'm not Unicode Member yet. That's why I'm asking here. If Unicode
>> Consoritum will decide Fonts in internal meeting, I will be the part of
>> Unicode Member. I will pay for Unicode Members Fees.
>>
>
> The Unicode Consortium encodes characters. Font implementations are not
> "decided" by the Unicode Consortium. I really don't know what you mean by
> "decide fonts".
>
I knew deeply what Unicode Consortium does. But Htoo Myint Nauning or
Myanmar Times wrote Unicode Consoritum will decide those fonts in Hongkong.
I surprised that statement and reconfirmed again. How did you teach about
Unicode Consoritum to Htoo Myint Naung?
>
> 3) Are there any practice for setting default font in other language
>>>>> wikipedia? (it's out of question for Unicode Mailing List)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is. Having said that, Wikipedia (like many Web sites) uses a
>>>> stylesheet to determine the display font. Since I don't have Paduak, when I
>>>> visit the Myanmar Wikipedia page, I see it in Code2000. You would have to
>>>> tell your browser to ignore the fonts specified by the stylesheet and use
>>>> yours instead, which often doesn't turn out as well as hoped.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have been talking to Jimmy Wales about helping to sort out the Myanmar
>>> Wikipedia, and I agree that this list is not the forum for discussion about
>>> it.
>>>
>>
>> Hey It's cross-road of Unicode and Wikipedia. So, There are a lot of
>> localziation experts subscribed that mailing list. They can answer good
>> explanation here. You may not answer good question here because you are one
>> of font developer for Myanmar Wikipedia.
>>
>
> I think it's inappropriate for you to suggest what you seem to be
> suggesting here on a public forum.
>
> skip it, Others people will answer more detail. I sincerely mentioned that
>> it's out of question. But someone may know about Wikimedia Foundation
>> practice.
>>
>
> I suspect Sarasvati will wish this discussion to take place elsewhere.
>
> I got good explanation by Doug Ewell. I will spread information by Myanmar
>> Media. Myanmar People are lack in references. Stupid Group and Myanmar
>> biased Media were making news with wrong information. You may not know that
>> situation.
>>
>
> I have my own sources in Myanmar and am not interested in any feuding.
Great to know you had own sources in Myanmar.
>
> --
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>
>
Ngwe Tun.
-- In Burmese; Ngwe mean 1) Silver 2) Money 3) Second Awards; Tun mean 1) Light 2) be prominent.
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