Re: Question about the directionality of "Old Hungarian" (document N3531)

From: André Szabolcs Szelp (
Date: Sun Nov 02 2008 - 07:48:11 CST

  • Next message: Kent Karlsson: "RE: Question about the directionality of "Old Hungarian" (document N3531)"


    Not considering bustrophaedon,
    even in the described standard behaviour of OH of having the
    characters mirrored when overriden LTR, I believe it is problematic
    that one has to replace the punctuation characters.

    Usually one would think of the LTR and RTL in OH as the same text with
    the same information, ie. the same string of characteres, only
    displayed differently (i.e. other text-flow direction, and mirrored).
    So why do we have to use other characters?

    The passage in the current proposal authored by Michael and me
    contains the passage above cited by Karl, it was included on grounds
    of verbal communication of Michael about the preference "by the

    However, I do believe that it should be open for discussion.

    Karl suggested (privately) having the punctuation included in the OH
    block, alongside with the Bidi_Mirrored=Yes property.
    This would not amount for duplication of existing characters (e.g.
    reversed question mark for Hebrew), as the two characters are distinct
    by properties. Very much distinct indeed.

    Bidi_Mirroring is exactly the property which is expected by the users
    for both the OH letters and the punctuation, when overriding RTL to
    LTR. So what speaks against using it?


    2008/11/2 Kent Karlsson <>:
    >> -----Original Message-----
    >> From:
    >> [] On Behalf Of Michael Everson
    >> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:31 PM
    >> To: unicode Unicode Discussion
    >> Subject: Re: Question about the directionality of "Old
    >> Hungarian" (document N3531)
    >> On 2 Nov 2008, at 09:47, Karl Pentzlin wrote:
    >> > Does this imply that if directional override is used, and if the
    >> > text contains any characters not encoded within the "Old Hungarian"
    >> > block,
    >> > they are mirrored as well even if these characters themselves are
    >> > strong RTL or strong LTR?
    >> No.
    >> > Especially, if the quotation marks U+201F and (proposed in N3531) U
    >> > +2E33 are contained, is it definitive according to the standard
    >> > including the bidi algorithm (which I admittedly have not
    >> studied in
    >> > every detail) that these quotation marks are mirrored, appearing
    >> > like U+201D and U+201E?
    >> No, quotation marks are not mirrored.
    > That is normally true, even when directional override characters
    > are used or when higher-level-protokol, e.g. markup, equivalent to
    > directional override characters, are used. Both of these methods I
    > think are entirely unsuitable for boustrophedon. Boustrophedon needs
    > a separate higher-level-protokol (e.g. markup) item/tag/attribute.
    > However, in boustrophedon, in lines where glyphs are mirrored,
    > *EVERY* glyph is mirrored in those lines, including those for
    > quotation marks.
    > /kent k

    Szelp, André Szabolcs
    +43 (650) 79 22 400

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